Might be a good chance to eat some pizza and get some sleep.

NEAR AL KUT, Iraq

[
His unit (Maj. Marty Korenek, a company commander in the U.S. Marines 4th Assault Amphibious Battalion.) took a position a few miles west of Nasiriyah, preparing to cross the Euphrates River over a bridge that has been a flash point for battles with the Fedayeen, an Iraqi paramilitary force of 60,000 fighters.

The area was repeatedly struck Monday with suppressing fire from allied attack helicopters, artillery fire and infantry forces. Medivac helicopters were seen flying into and out of the area.
]

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/5472668.htm

Further reports from the region?

Sitmap -

Arrows represent future deployment or present movement?

We're in another lockdown.

Uh oh.

What's a lockdown?

Is someone asking you to lockdown?

I'm seeing more reports now about the supposed authorisation to use chemical weapons. Powell is saying that he has information to suggest that the Iraqis will deploy chemical weapons once the coalition forces cross a "red line" around Baghdad.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6184398%255E25777,00.html

(chemical weapons they don't have, i suppose...)

Old news and still not substantiated.

where is the sitmap, please?

This division that is said to be rushing to Baghdad, bypassing mass pockets of Iraqis, in the hopes the Iraqis will all surrender once Baghdad falls..

is this just something some news anchor invented, or did command actually make such an idiotic pronouncement? For this to work, a) there would have to be no significant Iraqi forces left in Baghdad, b) Baghdad could be taken and secured within mere hours, which would require a populace welcoming them with open arms, and c) it would have to be absolutely assured that no Iraqi forces now south of the city could get back into it.

Anyone know how long it will be until the 4th ID is feet dry and moving in?

It seems like they should accompany columns of relief supplies into Basra. Start feeding people and see if the irregulars gain any support then.

Kind of making me nervous.

I take a lockdown to mean no new news is coming from any sources, meaning none is getting past the military on the ground due to the expediencies of the current situation.

"lockdown" == no information being released by coalition command.

The last time we had one of those was when the Iraqis started appearing in "captured" towns and cities, and the 3rd Infantry had captured/crossed the same bridge at Nasiriyah about 3 times in a row.

i.e. all hell broke lose the last time there was a lockdown.

DrFrank, the 4th Infantry can't accompany relief supplies into Basra, because Iraq still holds Basra, and looks like they will continue to hold it at least for the next day or so.

Sitmap

Arrows represent reported axis of advance (in general ofcourse). It is based on commonly available news reports (many found here) and is of varrying accuracy as to locations and units listed.

The more unit specific (division strength)/location specific info we can get will allow it to be refined.

MSNBC Analyst just made a good point:

Before D-Day there were 15 Iraqi Regular Army Divisions located between Basra and Bagdad along the Tigris. Where are they now?
The Marines advancing on Baghdad via Al-Kut haver encountered nothing resembling Division-strength resistance.

His assertion was that most had left the battlefield and melted into the countryside, either to fight as guerrillas or go home and sit out the war.

One of those "human intrest" stories on CNN International now. A poll was held to see how many troops the public expected to die in the war...

Do americans really expect about 100-300 casualities for the americans in this war? Or is this poll a bunch of crap?

Just heard on cspan's broadcast of Canadian news that all indy reporters in S. Iraq have left for Kuwait because the area is insecure. Only embedded reporters remain, apparently.

My point was that if the entire 4th ID went into Basra, with relief supplies, the resistance would either stop or be obliterated, and we could start feeding the civilians and turn the water back on.

It seems like we are undermanned.

Perhaps this signifies the start of a big offensive or a change in tactics. The military certainly wouldn't want live pictures of a ground assault on the RG units and the even more certainly wouldn't want anyone to know if they started carpet bombing Basra or Nasiriyah.

Either way it will be ugly.

Read the post from yesterday concerning US Troops in Jordan for info on the possible location of the 4th ID. It seems there are cargo ships unloading armor at the port of Aqaba on the Red Sea. Could the 4th ID materializing in the western desert be Tommy Frank's wild card? Let us hope so.

25-MAR 03:21

Sanaa (Yemen ) - The Yemani Parliament denounced the war against Iraq as “an aggression against the Arab-Muslim nation”. Yemani members of parliament have invited Arab states to “assume their responsibilities towards the Palestinian and Iraqi people”. The text also contains the statement: “Any form of moral or material assistant to the aggressing invaders is prohibited”. (Corriere Della Sera)

My guess is lockdown can mean one of only two things:

- we are getting raped by the Iraqis
- we are preparing a massive assault and don't want everyone and their brother and their brother's VX nerve gas to get word of it

Things ought to get interesting *real* soon

I suppose it's just a coincidence that those who seem to be antiwar are the most pessimistic about how the war is going, while those who think that the war is necessary are more optimistic. :)

Dack: no wonder they leave if the Pentagon tells in a press release that "they have reasons to believe Iraqi soldiers disguise themselves as newscrews".

Did anyone catch the interview with Richard Pearle by Peter Jennings? I couldn't hear most of it, as I was at a laundromat, but I heard Jennings ask him if Syria was next. Pearle didn't deny it and alluded that war with other countries in the region might be necessary. It might have benign, but I just don't trust the guy and I can't find a transcript.

Oh BTW, does anyone have recent photos or sat photos of Umm Qasr? The Russian site was saying we took it off the map. AFAIK no one else has said this, so it would be a good way of proving or disproving the validity of the site if we got some photos of the town.

Reliance on in bed reporters and sporadic 'unilateral,' roving reporters is aggravating.

There are no communications intercepts being published on the internet, other than the Russians?

Fox News is breaking that the US just destroyed the downed Longbow...

Don't know if anyone saw this...from slate...

From: Nate Thayer
Subject: More American Bombs, and More Iraqi Defiance

Monday, March 24, 2003, at 3:18 PM PT

BAGHDAD, Tuesday morning, 12:30 a.m.—This morning, hundreds of Iraqis filled the lobby of the Palestine Hotel to watch the broadcast of Saddam Hussein's speech. Their mood was defiant. They clapped and cheered as Saddam rallied them to war. "Americans have bombed civilian areas," Saddam said, according to my translator. "They are trying to weaken us, but they are stupid. They will never win."

Iraqi TV rejoiced over yesterday's battles. All day long, it broadcast the interrogation of the captured American soldiers. Rumors spread through the capital about two British pilots captured in Baghdad, but they haven't been seen on TV.

The atmosphere on the street gets more and more menacing every day. There are groups of people chanting anti-American slogans. The military presence has increased dramatically. Outposts and bunkers are on every corner. Roadblocks are set up on all the main streets. The oil trenches ignited over the weekend continue to burn—casting a literal black cloud over the city. Iraqis assume that American forces will encircle Baghdad, and they are preparing for a siege.

Tonight's bombing started just over an hour ago, following another day of intense raids. We could see fighter planes today. Tomahawk strikes, by now almost routine, took out city buildings. We also heard that B-52s were bombing the outskirts of the city.

I'm too distracted to follow tonight's assault very carefully. Iraqi officials are continuing to harass us. I was just told that we will be expelled first thing in the morning. They said we will have to drive to Syria—a 20-hour ride on a highway that we've heard is under bombardment from the coalition. It's a suicide drive, and I am not going to do it. I have about six hours to figure out how to get out of it.

Have we formally declared war upon Iraq?

Whether we have or not, how does this affect the legal status of POWs?

25-MAR 02:53

The Iraqi government has denied that US and UK troops are within 100 kilometers of Baghdad. “Statements such as these are simply tactics of psychological warfare” said a member of Saddam Hussein’s entourage. Corriere della Sera

Raven,
The sitmap is at
http://agonist.org/annex/sitmap

(Sean-Paul, maybe there could be a more noticeable permanent link to it on the home page?)

[
In response to military actions in Iraq, the New York City Police Department has implemented Operation Atlas, a comprehensive security package to protect New York City from possible reprisal attacks by terrorist groups and others.
]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/atlas.html#core

Operation Atlas Safety Resources
New York City Resources
Office of Emergency Management
Household Preparedness

Federal Resources
Homeland Security
Be Ready! Make a Kit, Make a Plan, Be Informed.

Securing NYC by land, air, and sea.






[
In response to military actions in Iraq, the New York City Police Department has implemented Operation Atlas, a comprehensive security package to protect New York City from possible reprisal attacks by terrorist groups and others.
]

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/issueoftheweek/2Operation Atlas Safety Resources 0030324/200/322

People in Manhattan over the last few days mentioned a large amount of helicopters overhead as well as machine gun totting police in the streets.

Most Americans(not me)live in some kind of dream world. With only 300 casualities, we would have a 1 in 1500 kia/wia ratio. Which means 1 in every 1500 soldiers would be either killed or wounded. WWI, WWII, and Vietnam had a 1 in 15 ratio. If this war has that kind of ratio it would mean 17,000 casualaties. That won't happen unless we get bogged down in a urban fight. I expect somewhere around a 1 in 100 ratio.

Lee: very true! I think that it 2/3 lack of confidence in the commander in chief and 1/3 actual catcher-in-the-rye unpatriotic spite. I've noticed my liberal friends, the angry mob over at dailyKos and the media left siezing on every detail as a sign of the rottenness of our admin.

On the other side their is this lockstep faith in Bush and jingoism about the greatest army in the world which is blocking logical thought. DO what they do and watch Fox. Fox sounds like Volkische Beobachter when you've just flipped from MSNBC.

For my part I am one of those pessimists; I keep warning my friends not to jump to conclusions but I keep seeing echoes of famous historical military disasters.

Our forces are just too small.

I try to be objective; I think the firepower available will rescue any American force which gets defeated, but as far as conquering a country? As the president often reminds us, Iraq is the size of California.

Could the lockdown have anything to do with the weather changes?

This is kind of an aside ---

There is a question that has been plagued for a while and I was curious what others thought.

We refer to the "sovereignty" of Iraq, but how can it be the sovereignty all the Iraqy people when the political, economic, domestic, foreign, and militaristic decisions are that of one man, not that of the people. It bothers me that we discuss the sovereignty of the Iraqy people when they have no voice in what happens to them in "their" country. All actions and decisions are made by one man and the people are subjected to his will, not there own. Perhaps if he had been elected into power, instead of obtaining power thru a military coup (disregarding the involvement of the past administrations), then, and only then, might I feel that there was legitimacy to his rule.

How can the will of one man equate to the sovereignty of an entire people?

How exactly do you think we will avoid an urban fight?

You think they are going to volunteer to come out and fight in the desert?

General Wolfe thought the French and Indians would come out of the woods, too.

Not to take anything at all away from Sean-Paul's maps, but there's a nice selection of maps here:

University of Texas
Perry-Castañeda Library
Map Collection
Iraq Maps
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/iraq.html

Interesting dispatch from Baghdad by Slate's journalist there, Nate Thayer: http://slate.msn.com/id/2080432/entry/0/

Insider information for you:

The US government has awarded a $4.8 million dollar contract to Stevedoring Services of America headquartered in Seattle, Washington, for the reconstruction of the port of Umm Qasr. El Mundo

Lee,

Its human nature, if your looking for the good thats what you find, same with the bad.

Personally, I feel that alot of this pessimism is overblow. The only thing that has bothered me so far is that we have been forced to lay seige to Basra. Cutting off electricity, water, and keeping food from coming in isn't going to endear us to the Shias there.

Peter S: A formal declaration of war is not necessary for the Geneva Conventions to apply. The conventions cover situations of "armed conflict".

For instance Convention III relative to the treatment of prisoners of war states:

Art 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

Read the Convention on the ICRC web site

Bill, thanks for the sitmap url.

There probably is a link on the main page, only there are so many links there I am too lazy to go looking for it :)

"lockdown" could mean any one of a number of things... some 'good', some 'bad'. This, too, shall pass and we will eventually know what gives.

Has anyone else seen anything more about the 4th? Your biggest guns bobbing in the Med on ships while the fighting kicked in was a tactical mistake, to say the least. They were "officially" headed to Kuwait to offload then some rumors about Jordanian deals to let "some troops and equipment" pass on thru. Possible the 4th is going to trek thru Jordan and into Western Iraq? That would certainly be a lot more effective than passing around to the Gulf to off load and would relieve a lot of pressure in the region, once deployed.

I'd like to find out more about this.. I thought I read Jordan was rumored to be allowing some limited passage of "about 7,000 troops" and some equipment. Maybe 7,000 pieces of equipment, instead? Time will tell, but none of us like to wait on time, do we? =D

Can anyone vouch for the whereabout of the troops associated with the 4th? I thought they were still holed up at Ft. Hood while their equipment sat in ships? Anyone with some insight on this?

lb

from DebkaFile:

"Away from the main arena, a small yet illuminating scene played out just across the Iraqi border Monday morning. Syria complained that a stray American missile had struck a bus killing five civilians and injuring ten.

According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, the only true fact in this terse account was that the bus was Syrian. The missile was no stray. It was deliberately fired from an F-15 fighter-bomber at a bus carrying armed Palestinian volunteers to join up with Iraqi forces, in order to make sure this was the last such Palestinian group of volunteers for Iraq. That F-15 made a piece of history; it carried out the first American air attack on a combatant Palestinian group. More will certainly be heard of this episode."

Interesting, if true.

Hack just predicted the real 'Shock and Awe' will start in the next 24 hours. According to his sources the holdup was and still is the Turks. The 4th Division needs to be redeployed. As soon as that happens you'll see some real ass-kicking.

"....As the president often reminds us, Iraq is the size of California."

heehee after that last election i bet Georgie W. would looove to invade California.

No news because A. its daylight B. things will get uglier and C. the indy reporters hauled ASS out of Iraq as soon as the Pentagon bitched about enenmy troops dressed up as reporters.

Have we formally declared war upon Iraq?

Whether we have or not, how does this affect the legal status of POWs?

No, the US has not formally declared war upon Iraq.

According to the Geneva convention on prisoners of wars, prisoners of enemy combatants are to given the protections of the Geneva convention regardless of whether or not war has been declared.

Therefore those prisoners at Guantanamo and those in Baghdad must be afforded their rights under the Geneva convention despite the lack of a declaration of war.

- CreationLTD

Some Collateral Damage:

Rio de Janeiro; Demonstrators throw Molotov cocktail at US Consulate.

Hamburg: Protesters clash with police outside US Consulate.

Beirut: Bomb explodes outside British Embassy.

DRFrankLives: General Wolfe thought the French and Indians would come out of the woods, too.

Which would have been a good idea! If that darned Montcalm had listened to the "Canadiens" (who were advocating for a guerilla action), instead of fighting the highly styled european-style battle err... slaughter, who knows what might have happened...

Of topic: I've been trying to compile a list of countries that support us, and what they are doing to support the invasion. I'm doing well, but need to go back and re-source things to make it more legitimate. Does anyone have good sources for this type of info. I've used State Department briefings and Google Search for news reports for specfic countries so far.... Thanks.

Anybody see this article about Iraqi civilians dressing up as soldiers so they can surrender and get food?

Amateurs talk strategy and tactics, professionals talk logistics. We've got soldiers dressed as civilians, we've got civilians dressed as soldiers, and we've got a brewing humanitarian catastropher in Basra. Who else thinks that the POW apparatus turns into a dangerous drain on US resources?

Possible 'lockdown' reason - weather in and around Baghdad? See:

http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/IZXX0008_f.html

gusty winds thru Wednesday, possibility of rain. Sandstorms allow for little mechanical movement.

Just heard a quote from a navy aviator that seemed poignant: "The difference between me and an Iraqi is that I'm willing to die for his freedom."

That's the party line, to be sure, but he's got a point, ya know?

Do you think the lockdown is because of the sandstorms?

>How can the will of one man equate to the sovereignty of an entire people?

If the Iraqis don't like their government, let 'em have a revolution like we had in 1776. I would even favor supporting them with my tax dollars. But every time the Iraqis tried to revolt, the Bush People fucked them. The Bush People don't want Iraqis to run Iraq. They want to run Iraq themselves. That's what this trillion-dollar war of conquest is all about.

On Jordan & the 4th ID.

Pure Speculation:

+/- 7,000 troops would be all thats needed to offload,tranship,and secure the bulk of 4th ID's equipment from Aqaba to H2 & H3 in the Iraqi western desert, where troop transport aircraft would deliver the rest of 4th ID personnel from the US (which has already begun).

Sorry, I meant General Braddock.

Dang. 7th grade was a long time ago...

Shock and Awe **still** hasn't begun???

Damn, I could have sworn I heard someone saying 3 or 4 days ago it was starting.

Raise your hands, anyone who still believes 15 Iraqi regular army divisions have all deserted. I will believe anyone who suggests that Nasiriyah is being held by a few disorganized irregulars in pickup trucks, I promise.

It seems to me that the 4th ID would require an immense amount of supplies to drive into Western Iraq from Aqaba, and well, there isn't anything there needing an infantry division to take.

My guess?

The 3rd ID stops outside of Baghdad and waits for the 4th and other forces to catch up.

The truth will ultimately evade lockdowns, as it does the competing propaganda of Al Jazeera and CNN. Thank you Sean-Paul!!! Speaking of propaganda, the most worrying thing to me from the US perspective is the disparity of rhetoric. While the corporate communications of the White House Pentagon always sounds like a press release from one of the faceless minions of a Jack Welch wannabe, the Iraqi side has stuff like "the land fights using its people," "your jihad will tire the souls of your enemies," and "have you found what the devil that besets your soul promised you in Iraq?" If the pen is mightier than the sword, we in big trouble.

As far as I know, the Pentagon already told us that Shock and Awe had begun, but they could always be lying...

Maybe as part of a real shock and awe, we would drop MOABs and Daisy Cutters on the iraqis. Maybe the MOAB is farther along than we think? Only speculation

Perhaps the Jordanian reports concern only a Brigade or 2 from the 4th ID. Doesn't necessarily need to be the whole Division to be an effective force.

lanboy - this whole mess with the 4th ID and Turkey dicking around with us - could it all be a big strategic deception? The 4th ID suddenly shows up in Western Iraq via Jordan?

Probably not. Nice idea though.

More questions on the 4th: If they WERE to be involved anytime 'soon', that would imply they've already docked and off-loaded equipment, or are nearly finished in doing so. It takes a good deal of time to haul an entire division's worth of equipment off of ships, for sure, then they have to cross a good deal of land to be in the North or the West.

For the 4th to be poised to engage anything, I would think they'd have necessarily docked somewhere over the prior to the weekend, near immediately after announcing Turkey was a 'no-go' and even then, is that enough time to get involved so soon?

They're composed of a pretty big flotilla. Anyone seen or heard of 'em lately?

lb

MSNBC is showing a very good battlefield breakdown of Nasiriya battles using satelitte maps. Gives a viewer a pretty good idea where the Iraqi counterattacks occurred.

Since we're in an information "lock-down", I thought I'd post this just to keep some action going. This opinion is quite "off topic" but I suspect that when this is all over there will be serious emnity between the Pentagon & the Bu$h/Rummy/Neo-Con axis.
Remember that Rumsfeld had been pushing the Pentagon to think "outside the box" and, in the proces, has strained a lot of pro-Bu$h sentiment. In addition, we're witnessing another failure in intelligence estimations....recall we were alleged to be totally clueless about Sept 11......
I wonder if the Mid-East "domino scheme" has been shelved?

The 4th ID (or individual brigades)in the western desert would have a long but relatively straight shot (few populated areas to hide irregulars in) to either Baghdad...or Tikrit.

It's too much to hope for. But would make for glorious headlines:
US 4TH ID IN TIKRIT!

"every time the Iraqis tried to revolt, the Bush People f*cked them"

The people(s) who revolted were two 'tribes' (one north, one south) with their own agendas. What do you think they'd have done when they found Saddam's toy box(es)?

colereux: It's not "unpatriotic spite" at all. We are still collectively terrified for the servicemen on both sides of the conflict; we're worried, and that's why we're so pessimistic.
Please believe me when I say that our dearest hope is that we have been completely, utterly, and entirely wrong about this war, that everything will go smoothly and a peaceful Iraq will rise in the middle east.
I think we are becoming increasingly justified in our paranoia as the war continues. This is not a happy thought.

You may have posted this earlier and I missed it, but I was just reading MSNBC online and they gave the website for Al Jazeera online in English, new today. The address is: http://english.aljazeera.net

The equipment of the 4th Infantry is on 27 transports, somewhere between the East Med and the Persian Gulf. Unfortunately, the docks available in Kuwait are so limited that it would take the better part of a week just to get the equipment off - and longer if logistical support to troops in Iraq also has to funnel through this keyhole. At least another few days to a week would be required to mate the troops, still in Texas and Colorado, to the equipment.

I don't expect to see the 4th engaged for at least 2 weeks. Rumsfeld gambled on a quick strike by the 3rd ID, and the next few weeks may well be the price.

Can anyone clarify the water situation in Basra? I've seen reports that they've been days without water, but also reports that 40% of the city has functioning water. If the latter is the case, then it's a major inconvience, but would seem to me that it's not necessarily a humanitarian crisis.

Also, can someone explain why we can't drop food and water packets into the city from the air?

Finally, if it's really bad, then why wouldn't the Iraqi's pretend to cooperate and be peaceful for long enough that we bring water to then, and then after they fill their water coolers restart the urban war against the coalition?

Thanks

CBS veteran correspondent Bob Simon, scheduled to be in Larry King's show tonight live, which was turned down by CNN bosses was on Dutch TV
himself taken hostage and tortured in Gulf War Mark I by the Iraqis, has strong opinions against this war.

skip to 65 minutes here:
broadband:
http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/nps/nova/bb.20030324-a.rm?proto=rtsp
dial-up:
http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/nps/nova/sb.20030324-a.rm?proto=rtsp

but the main thing isn't there, the stream cuts it short, alas

anybody out there having the bandwidth to publisch the whole thing ?
The Agonist can't, but Sean-Paul has the complete video,
just ask him for it.

Officials: Chemical Attack Feared Near Baghdad

Breaking off FoxNews.com

This from the "Odd and Probably Stupid Speculation" file:

What if the Iranians were somehow tempted to get involved in this current situation? I know it's totally implausible, but I thought what if the Iranians decided not to wait until their "dance card" was punched and decided to act? Goofy I know

>The people(s) who revolted were two 'tribes' (one north, one south) with their own agendas.

Who in Iraq does not fit that description? Who is the polis who will control this democracy we're going to bestow on Iraq?

Don't think too hard about that. We aren't going to give Iraq a democracy. Think "Shah of Iran." Think about how well that worked out.

Claude B.,

Thanks for that reference.

For anyone else that's interested, there are more Geneva Convention resources here:

International Red Cross
Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and Additional Protocols of 8 June 1977
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/party_gc

Remember the "Hail Mary" manuever during GW1? The Iraqis and the media were all expecting a frontal assault from Kuwait and the sea and all of a sudden the Allied tanks appeared from behind them having flanked them through the western desert?

I think this lockdown is part of a similar deal. For the last 24 hours we've been getting a lot of disinformation about units being stuck here and stuck there. My guess is all of a sudden a lot of troops will appear out of nowhere 101st Airbone, 82nd Airbone, even maybe as per Sean-Paul the so called sea-stuck 4th Infantry division will appear out of nowhere and Baghdad will be stormed. Just maybe.

Then we will see the true meaning of shock and awe.

Lanboy ---> Hack said the 4th will be ready to go in less that 48 hours. He gets his info straight from the top. You do know who Hack is ???

Let's put 2 + 2 together:
- a news lock down
- no mention of the 4th for days
- no mention of the 2nd MEB at all
- more than half the sorties are for ground support
= something big is going to happen

I would expect even fewer stories from the field as the battles intensify. The reports will be either hours/days old after undergoing military review or will come from behind the front lines and in Kuwait. I am seeing more "what if?" stories which are based on speculation. That's what happens when there is no news coming out.

Anyone catch Lou Dobbs? He had a USA flag pin stragically placed so it would be visible above the CNN banner. Any wonder why CNN was booted out of Iraq?

Didn't see this posted here, probably missed it though, but just in case something to read:

Saudi Advisory Body Demands Halt to War on Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&u=/nm/20030324/wl_nm/iraq_saudi_council_dc_2&

Here is a very fast site so don't know how many people are aware of it. It comes with a warning, editorialized news from an arab perspective.

aljazeerah.info or aljazeerah.us

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Port of Aqaba, Jordan.

Just heard a quote from a navy aviator that seemed poignant: "The difference between me and an Iraqi is that I'm willing to die for his freedom."

That's the party line, to be sure, but he's got a point, ya know?
Posted by Jim at March 24, 2003 09:57 PM

Did he say that before or after he dropped a bomb on that Iraqi's head?

Hardore: Who is Hack? Does he have a blog somewhere?

http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3462--314031-,00.html

Excellent, detailed, first hand article by Le Monde reporter with US Army near Nasiriyah.

[
Nous sommes entrés dans l'aéroport à la mi-journée. Il était, à l'évidence, déjà passablement délabré avant notre arrivée. Un seul type d'installations était neuf : d'immenses hangars à avions enterrés, de véritables bunkers. Mais, à notre arrivée, ils étaient vides. Avant de céder, les Irakiens avaient éparpillé des camions hors d'usage et de vieilles machines-outils sur les pistes, pour empêcher les avions américains d'atterrir. Seules les pistes sont praticables, tout le reste est miné. Les démineurs les font sauter. Par précaution, les soldats se tiennent uniquement sur le tarmac.
]

Hey, Puma, students of military history weren't at all surprised by the tactics of Gulf War I. In North Africa in WWII, both the Germans under Rommel and the Brits under a bunch of guys used the "desert hook" many times, since both sides had strong defenses close to the coast of the Mediterranean.

Also, what we're doing in the current campaign is hardly new. The infamous German blitzkrieg ("lightning war") was practically the same thing, with fast-moving armored assaults, massive air support, and follow-up infantry to mop up. I think our boys are going even faster than the Germans did in France or Russia.

Never assume that the previous war's tactics will work in the next. France learned that lesson the hard way in 1940.

On Jordan & the 4th ID.

I have some tough time to believe something like that. The young king Abdallah has enough trouble with his street. Parading a couple thousand vehicles for 500-600 km in Jordan (the approximate distance between Al Aqabah and the Iraqi border) just can't be hidden. It would be very detrimental to the very existence of the regime there.

The alternative is to start in the Gulf. Off-loading in the small harbours of Koweit might take a few days.

So, I imagine that the US 4th ID will be used as a follow-up force to free the British Marines in southeastern Iraq, or to help the three augmented divisions which will be heavily involved in Baghdad.

>Who is the polis who will control this democracy we're going to bestow on Iraq?

Not sure, and that ain't my problem. I think we can ALL agree that they'll control it without the luxury of WMD.

I've noticed the comments re the location of the 4th and 82nd. But what about the 1st Armored? Got marching orders on 3/7. Then a one line from stars and stripes on 3/15 that the deployment was on hold. Then nothing... Anyone have any ideas on whereabouts?

From the L.T. Smash blog (he's in the military):

"An officer returned from recently liberated Iraqi territory.

His men were met with no resistance whatsoever. The Iraqis had been in a strong defensive position, and had seen his men coming.

But they welcomed them as liberators.

Liberators with food."

Link

"Dans l'enceinte de l'aéroport, nous a-t-on dit, se trouvent les ruines du ziggourat où serait né Abraham."

Those "only two tribes with their own agendas" who rebelled after GW, Part Un, were "only" the Kurds and the marsh arabs in the south.

Now, the marsh arabs are all shi'ites and nearly 2/3 of Iraq is shi'ite, so we are not dealing with a mere "tribe" here.

Besides, it's moot.. they didn't make a move until Daddy told they to rebel, they'd get American help for sure.

As for democracy in Iraq when this is all over: Iraq is 2/3 shi'ite, Iran is overwhelmingly shi'ite.

Iran, that place that invented the concept of Islamic Republic, remember?

There will be no democratic government in Iraq when this is done.

Is there any way to search The Agonist (main Flash entries and comments)?

CNN (202) - Aaron Brown babbling about the budget

MSNBC (356) - Military Expert babbling about troop movement

FoxNews (360) -Babbling the headlines for the umpteenth time

News World International (366) - Babbling Gas mask demonstration

Something really bad is happening or about to happen -- we're deliberately being told nothing. Bad being a universal term for WHATEVER your scenario may be.

(Ret.) Col Hackworth, America's most decorated soldier. Hack fought in 3 wars.
He was just on Larry King. He's been there all week. Read his book Steel My Soldiers' Hearts or About Face. During the last Gulf War Hack snuck behind the lines to get the real truth. Today he fights for the grunts against the Five Sided Puzzle Palace.
Try these links:
http://www.hackworth.com/
http://www.sftt.org/

Work is paralyzed at the coalition press-center in Kuwait. Journalists are not able to get any information except for the hourly press communique from the command. A variety of reasons are cited by the military to reduce the number of trips into the combat zone for the journalists. All reports coming from the journalists attached to the coalition units are now being strictly censored by the military. All live broadcasts, as those seen during the first day of the war, are now strictly prohibited by a special order from the coalition command. The required time delay between the time news video footage was shot and the time it can be broadcast has been increased to a minimum of 4 hours.

This from aeronautics.ru translation of iraqwar.ru.

... just to add a couple of more 'what if'

What if the Iranians and Turks have allready secretly divided the Kurdish zone in Northern Iraq and Iran is going to join the Turkish forces in northern Iraq.
What if at the same time Russia is preemtively securing the Iranian oilfields in the Caspian region.
And what if North Korea is seeing this at its unique chance...
What would Pakistan and India do?

and then, we will be all shocked and awed!

4th & Jordan

Read the article linked yesterday on this site. The King has the entire eastern portion of the country off limits and contols the media with an iron fist.

He currently gets less than $1 billion in total aid from US. We offered the Turks $25 billion +. I say we got Abdullah for $10bill if its true.

Anyone seen satellite photo confirmation that the new sandstorm is really *that* big? If not, it would be good cover for a media lockdown, followed by puma and hardcore's "4th ID-surprise" speculations above.

Anyone seen any BDA sat photos? If so link?

As for democracy in Iraq when this is all over: Iraq is 2/3 shi'ite

A democratic Iraq containing Shi'ite spiritual centers like Karbala could draw influence away from Iran, and thus be an asset.

Somewhere thru a link here or on one of the co-connected warblogs within the last 18 hours I read that the Jordanian govt had declared a northern segment of their country an 'off limits' zone, (read military corridor) specifically for the 4th to come across from the Red Sea. Further, they were not making this public, in fact holding it pretty closely, as it would upset the Jordanian public. Did none of you see this?
I also heard, I believe really heard not read, as in on CNN or MSNBC, that a General had finally arrived in northwest Iraq so that that front might actually develop sooner, not later. Am I mistaken? Or maybe I read some unreliable source? I surely thought it authoritative. Woe to me.

Where the hell are the other major US units ? I have seen reports of 1st Armored and 1st Cav in transit, but is this true ? Stringing out the 1st marine and 3rd infantry seems a bit risky in a country full not-quite-surrendered iraqi soldiers.

Mad Dog

Where the hell are the other major US units ? I have seen reports of 1st Armored and 1st Cav in transit, but is this true ? Stringing out the 1st marine and 3rd infantry seems a bit risky in a country full not-quite-surrendered iraqi soldiers.

Mad Dog

Col. Hackworth?!?...what a strutting peacock. Read about his lies on page 336 in Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden (paperback).

What if the Iranians and Turks have allready secretly divided the Kurdish zone in Northern Iraq and Iran is going to join the Turkish forces in northern Iraq.

heard rumors about that very thing a few times today

the Jordanian govt had declared a northern segment of their country an 'off limits' zone, (read military corridor) specifically for the 4th to come across from the Red Sea. Further, they were not making this public, in fact holding it pretty closely, as it would upset the Jordanian public

I can see how TV and papers could be controlled there, but what do they do about Internet access?

If the required time lapse is 4 hours, it is likely that at the very least some elements of the 4(?) Republican guard divisions around Iraq are engaging with 3rd ID.

Hacdore: Yeah, I know who Hack(worth) is. I'd like to think he's right, but I try not to think only the things I'd like to think. Here's to hoping good things from the 4th ID and the 82nd/101st Airborne.

I get the biggest kick out of people speculating about a democratic Iraq. These people are Islamic. The Koran IS their code of law. The Koran IS their Constitution. They have no concept of Democracy. You cannot force freedom or democracy on a people.

Just saw Barry McCaffrey on BBC blasting Pentagon planners (esp. Rummy) for the strategy and for not listening to the generals who actually know something about war. "Not enough troops," he says. Also said the lack of MP-type troops is forcing supply units like the one that was ambushed play that role.

i think that if it were the iraqi command i would try my best to cut the us supply line, it is very long and probably weak. gotta remeber those are tanks and apcs they are driving and not little hondas. i think that with msnbc stating that we lost contact with several divisions that may be what is happening.

[An American general yesterday set up headquarters in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq to oversee a second front in the war.

Major Gen Harry "Pete" Osman of the US marines announced that his military co-ordination and liaison command in Salahuddin would bring together military and humanitarian operations in northern Iraq and south-east Turkey.]

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/25/wkurd25.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/25/ixnewstop.html

Lets all chip in and get some sat photos. To request an Ikonos photo of a particular spot on the globe, it costs $3,000 to focus its camera on a geo-coordinate and another $29 per square kilometer of imagery. So we need to pick what area we would like to view?

"democratic Iraq containing Shi'ite spiritual centers"

Keep the faith, Lee, it may just happen.

And, given sufficient takeoff assistance, pigs -can- fly.. but don't expect either the flight or the landing to be graceful.

Partisan you are right to a point. In Hazardous Duty, Hack does have some bad info aboout the Mog. And he has admitted it to me. It seems he was still upset over Casey Joyce's death at the time and he didn't investigate throughly. You do know his relationship with Joyce??

I have page 336 open. What lies are you talking about?

Not sure trying to take over an entire nation with 3 divisions plus a little more wasn't the hottest idea ever. Sure looks like they could use a couple more, but what do I know?

And, given sufficient takeoff assistance, pigs -can- fly.

There's no reason Iraq can't have democratic government. You're just going to condemn them to dictators and/or chaos? How is that helpful?

And then there's Sj...

These people are Islamic... They have no concept of Democracy.

Overlooking Turkey, Indonesia, etc.

oops - "was the hottest idea ever."

Hardcore,

Generally speaking, what are Col. Hackworth's problems with the Pentagon?

Thus, maybe there are a "couple more" in the works?

I'm not sure what to make of this!

Morocco Offers U.S. Monkeys To Detonate Mine
March 24, 2003

RABAT, D.C., Morocco, Mar 24, 2003 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- A Moroccan publication accused the government Monday of providing unusual assistance to U.S. troops fighting in Iraq by offering them 2,000 monkeys trained in detonating land mines.

The weekly al-Usbu' al-Siyassi reported that Morocco offered the U.S. forces a large number of monkeys, some from Morocco's Atlas Mountains and others imported, to use them for detonating land mines planted by the Iraqis.

The publication quoted a highly-informed source as saying, "that is not a scientific illusion but a well-known military tactic."

United Press International
Copyright 2003 by United Press International.

Disregard earlier post about "Hackworth's Lies" its late and I was mistaken. Lies are different than misinterpretations. I thought there was a passage in the book that discussed Hackworth recvounting a visit to a wounded soldier that he never made.

2,000 monkeys trained in detonating land mines

Let's hope they're not trained as retrievers..

www.globalsecurity.org reported a few days ago 4th ID Equipment Transits Suez but now after searching the whole site the info is gone but they still have the link (not working now) is still up.

CNN just quickly blurbed that US forces in Nayasirya came under friendly fire. No mention of casualties

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/25/war125.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/25/ixnewstop.html

Suez confirmation mention.

Don't expect 4ID for days... has anyone said anything about planes departing from Fort Hood or Carson? 1st Cav hasn't even railloaded their equipment yet... at least a month off, therefore.
I think you give our people too much credit.

And with this map of deployments: http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2003/03/25/war125big.gif

A question I have is whether the 4th ID's equipment off of Turkey could have been a ruse. Is it possible that another division's worth of equipment was sent elsewhere, and the 4th would be married up to it there?

I don't know the logistics of this.

Friends of mine from Hood tell me they are moving out thi week. That is the troops and they are going civ flight. As far as I know and they know the equipment will be there when they arrive.

4th in Jordan?

Guys, guys, open an atlas and check a map!

Al Aqabah is the southernmost point in Jordan. The fabled port of Al Aqabah (featured in Lawrence of Arabia) is 300 km south of Amman. Amman-Iraq is another 300 km. The only way to make sure the typical Jordanian would not see the 4th would be to off-load in the neighbouring harbour at Eilat (Israel), drive through the Negev desert up to Sedom, cross the Jordanian border south of Al Karak and drive through the desert (creating wear and tear on the vehicles) all the way to the start line, wherever it might be.

On top of that, the USA usually rents 18-wheelers to transport vehicles and equipment (remember the long lines of trucks waiting at Inkenderun, earlier this month). I'm sure an operation of such magnitude would require requisitioning hundreds of these in a hurry. Forget about it. The 4th will be unloaded in the Gulf.

annotated NOAA sat images of iraq. scroll down.

sandstorms in southern iraq straight from NOAA.

I don't think the 4ID secret hook through Jordan is as easy as people think. It takes a LOT to offload and move a mechanized infantry division. Are the port facilities in Aqabah adequate? That's the only possible option. Maybe, they do have 20 berths and container handling, but the 4ID flotilla would basically take over the entire port for days (and thus disrupt existing shipping schedules). Could you keep that a secret? For that matter, how would you prevent anyone from noticing the flotilla taking a sharp left to Aqabah after exiting the GUlf of Suez; that's all heavily travelled international waters. YOu don't even need an Iraqi secret submarine, your secret plan is out if one guy with a laptop on a cruise ship notices the odd movement and posts to a blog somewhere! Aqabah is also a tourist destination (and an Israeli port/resort right nearby). What about the fuel stocks needed to move the division, and the heavy-equipment transporters to move the tanks and other armor out -- where would they have come from, if we hadn't built them up already? I guess it's not impossible but a mech division is not something you just sneak ashore somewhere. Doing it on the spur of the moment though Jordan would be tough, doing it secretly, I just don't see that being possible.

I stand corrected Lee but I stand by my statement that you cannot force it on a people. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

As for Democracy in Turkey there is one difference:

In Turkey, democratic institutions were neither imposed by the victors, as happened in the defeated Axis countries, nor bequeathed by departing imperialists, as happened in the former British and French dependencies, but were introduced by the free choice of the Turks themselves. This surely gave these institutions a much better chance of survival.

Source: Why Turkey Is the only Muslim Democracy
by Bernard Lewis

I posted this on another comment window a bit earlier.

Right now, the US army is getting its ass handed to it on a plate.

If you stop and consider the following facts, you will agree:

1) Iraq has NO airforce - ZERO.

2) Iraq has been under extremely strict sanctions for 12 years.

3) Iraqi tank technology is old and outdated soviet era materiel that has been without proper parts and maintenance for years.

4) Iraqi missile tech (SAM, RPG, Tactical and etc) is also old and out of date.

5) Iraq has no helicopters, no satellites, no navy, no guided missiles.

And the US army has just created a situation where they have a 350 km long supply line, soldiers who have not slept in 4 or 5 days, no pincers, lost track of several enemy divisions, no control over area supposedly secured last week, urban combat, and attacks on supply lines...

all in the middle of a sandstorm that is suppressing our close air support.

What a colossal fuck up.

Look, I opposed this war from the start, and I think it should end now. BUT, once we are in it, we should try to win it. Our military and civilian leaders have allowed themselves to fall into the SAME traps that they fell into in vietnam, have allowed their own chest-thumping pumped up bullshit rhetoric to blind them to the reality on the ground, which is that INVADING A NATION is bloody, ugly, slow, dangerous and REALLY REALLY STUPID.

Hope they are happy.

Let me add something new -- NYTimes reports from several cities in southern Iraq indicate that the scale and ferocity of the Iraqi resistance has forced the US/UK into serious urban combat situations, backed up by widespread artillery shelling and bombing. Escalation will require essentially the razing of entire neighborhoods if not entire districts. The opinion on the streets is now swinging wildly away from the US. This is a disaster.

Blair and Bush at Camp David, safely away from DC, away from London on the first days of the heavy Bagdhad campaign.

Hmmm.

I'm addicted since I first followed Atrios' link on Friday... excellent job!!!!

Not sure if this has been posted before...interesting report on MSNBC from a non-embedded reporter.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/889555.asp

Isn't the insignia on that downed Apache that of the 1st Cav?

http://www.reuters.com/newsPhotoGallery.jhtml?type=topNews&page=older&lastSID=1000434199&count=16&captions=off&totalPhotos=50&seq=4

Bobby, Russian site is reporting that it does. "Emblem indicates that the helicopter belongs to the US Army III Corps, Ist Cavalry Div."

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news077.htm

I both saw and heard these conficting plans for the 4th: 1)on CNN 2 days ago they were coming into (and flying from?) Jordan and going to the north; then tonight, 2)coming up from the south. The latter just a few minutes ago on a Canadian broadcast (CNBC), from a Lt. Col. retired guy who served in Iraq for Gulf I. He said the 4th is the most technical of the Div's and that they would have 40 ships to unload. He predicted Baghdad in 2-3 weeks. He thought they should have been there day 1. He sorely lamented the lack of ground forces and the vulnerable supply line. He also said the current storm was not good for our side at all in this particular case.

Anyone know the names of the ships carrying the division?

The 1st cav's insignia has been the same for decades. So people are saying they are still in transit? Maybe just the infantry/armor? Helicopters are already deployed?

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=6582&TagID=2

Is this the reports some have alluded to concerning Jordan? Not necessarily implying these to be elements of the 4th, but perhaps a force of some significance nonetheless. What else could be pouring in thru that port, though?

trying to find more...

lb

entirely UN-related, I'm sure:

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=6580&TagID=2

;-)

Fighting in Iran? The war spreads!

On the blackout. I would think it is pretty much just to control info to achieve tactical surprise. It is ok to have reporters saying your "general location" when your units are 180 miles from Baghdad, but once closed with the enemy, in a tight environment around Baghdad, any little hint could tip off the other guys. You can bet CNN and FoxNews are on in Baghdad. (Heck, we left the lights on for them)

They would recognize houses and roads. They would recognize land formations which would seem to a clueless MSNBC photog to be trackless desert. I think it's smart. We're getting our guys in position for what we think is the big tank battle. We should do it in secret, and I'm not upset about it.

I am going to be upset when we show up with all that firepower in a minefield, and find no one is there. They will all be in the streets of Baghdad, and Saddam will be on TV saying "nanny nanny boo boo come and smell my doo doo."

Any posters here know of Iraqi aircraft? Do they have planes or helicopters? Seems as if I read they have at least a reasonably substantial air force.

If they do have some air capability... has it been used?

No iraqi aircraft would get 15 feet off the ground before being obliterated. The Air is the one place where you can believe the hype.

[
The 21,000 soldiers of the 4th Infantry Division, based at Fort Hood, Tex., could begin arriving at staging areas in Kuwait almost immediately. But the 35 cargo ships laden with the division's heavy armor and equipment will not complete their journey from the Mediterranean, through the Suez Canal and Red Sea, and begin arriving in Kuwait until the first week of April at the earliest, defense officials said yesterday.

]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21450-2003Mar24.html

CENTCOM briefing today showed precision bombs taking out Iraqi aircraft. The planes have been dragged off airfields in an attempt to hide them (even set them next to cemetaries)

I am going to be upset when we show up with all that firepower in a minefield, and find no one is there. They will all be in the streets of Baghdad, and Saddam will be on TV saying "nanny nanny boo boo come and smell my doo doo."

Spot on, DFL. The commentator I mentioned previous post said exactly the same thing. Medina will engage & entice, withdraw, engage & entice, withdraw, until it's inside Baghdad. Very bad stuff. The only way to stop them would be with more forces, which as Clark said with some disdain, have been "bobbing around in the ocean" for days too long.

What about jet lag? Isn't flying in troops directly from Texas going to leave them a bit disoriented? Or is combat so disorienting it won't make a difference?

re: "11:32 EST Renewed fighting in Iraq (sorry, it's late) -- (snip) The Iraqi forces are said to be using oil installations and related infrastructure in the region from which to organize their attacks and in which to take cover."

These dispicable bastards are using innocent oil wells as (more important than) human shields. That's just rotten when we have played straight with them.

TalentKeyhole - I'd pitch in for that :)

Some details about the Iraqi Air Force are here:

GlobalSecurity.Org
Iraqi Air Force Equipment - Introduction
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment-intro.htm

Here's the last paragraph on the page:

"The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, testified before the House Armed Services Committee on 18 September 2002 that Iraq's air force operates more than 50 key air defense radars and has about 300 jet aircraft, including a few Mirage F-1s and MiG-29 Fulcrums, but less than half of those aircraft are mission capable."

BBC:

100s of Marines airdopped near Iranian border.

Why is Israel getting $10,000,000,000 for this war? They aren't even in it, despite what the Shias think.

Regarding the Iraqi air force, during the last US attack on Iraq, Saddam Hussein flew his jet fleet to Iran. The Iranians returned the pilots, kept the jets. The the US imposed sanctions on Iraq, as well as illegal "no-fly" zones.

This comes up all the time. You're wrong about the sanctions. The UN imposed sanctions on Iraq.

The illegal "no-fly" zones saved 1000s of Kurds. You'd rather Saddam had his way with them?

The 4th Infantry Division can be in Kuwait now, but their equipment is moving by ship and won't get to Kuwait until April 1st at the earliest.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21450-2003Mar24.html

Jordan, 4th ID or whatever:

With no data, only speculation:
-- This administration has been planning for this war since Sept 15 2001. The previous adminstration was not fully asleep at the watch either
-- It has been 12 years since the last Gulf War.
-- We have flown thousands of sorties during that time in the S no fly zone
-- We have preprovisioned equipment everywhere else in the middle east

Forget about the so called ships off Turkey and the offload time and drive time and OpSec.

Is it not possible that all the kit, fuel and supplies for an armored division was already on the ground somewhere out near the Jordanian/Iraqi border? Could have got there officially as part of military assistance to either Jordan or Israel.

Would explain why the airfield (right on the advance route -- almost highway strips) were taken early.

Would also explain why Sharon has been so relaxed.

Maybe Turkey always was Frank's Operation Bodyguard . . .

Enough speculation.

Asiaview, we couldn't even get our ground troops based in Turkey. There's no way in hell we could get stuff moved through Jordan. Much less Saudi Arabia.

My wife came and got me since she was reading this site and noticed all the 4ID messages. Since I'm in 4thID and sitting in Austin, TX, I don't think 4ID is going to be charging into Baghdad anytime soon. If Hackworth really said the 4th would be ready for combat in 48 hours he's deluded. Through Aqaba and a Jordanian corridor in a few days? Get real. More like through Kuwait in a couple of weeks. Read observer's last post if you want the truth and not a worthless conspiracy theory.

Andrew,

Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.

Could have been done a year ago, hidden within military aid budgets to Jordan and Israel. The king has been mighty friendly.

I just have to assume that all those fine planners at Centcom for the past 12 years and all of the war games (here is a question -- how many TV analysts in the last 72 hours have now claimed to played the Iraqi commander in wargames against Centcom) concluded that given any resistance levels it would be nice to have something with real punch on the ground somewhere out west.

But who knows?

And just in case the "up through Jordan" idea hasn't been shot to shreds already:

4th would be to off-load in the neighbouring harbour at Eilat (Israel)

...wouldn't work either, since Eilat is perfectly visible to anyone standing looking across from Aqaba.

(No offense to Claude, who I realize was pointing out the stupidity of this idea.)

4ID shows up in Kuwait and is nominally mission capable on 4/7, that's my guess (or maybe Uam Qsar if they clear the mines and have much better force protection in place from Basra on down--doubtful). At least two weeks, but what do I know.

But logistics aren't the reason they're not going to show up in some face-saving spot on the map--the neocon wonks thought we we're going to be traipsing into downtown Bag with a skeleton deployment of 75K troops (who would, logically, be marching arm-in-arm alongside the entire population of the bottom half of Iraq and every last one of us singing Kumbaya together).

Guess again, this smells more and more like an occupation than a liberation by the minute. I sense a fork in the moral road coming up where we're either going to have to take off the kid gloves and let the troops fight a war or we're going to be getting ankle bit and pimpslapped all the way back into the early 70s. Both of which have massive political ramifications that I don't think the shrubbites have prepackaged contingincies for.

TO: Agnosti
RE: Media Black-Out

Perhaps in closing on the objective, they don't want the Iraqis to know anything about where we are at and in what strength.

Its going to be a heck of a fight...

...one way or the other. I'm hoping for the developing Basra scenario.

TO: grant
RE: Occupation

"...this smells more and more like an occupation than a liberation by the minute." -- grant

Where on earth did YOU 'study' history?

Never read about Germany and Japan after the Second World War? You either had miserable teachers or you were a lousy reader.

What was it? The drugs?

Regards,

Chuck(le)