http://agonist.org/comments/2004/12/4/11425/1846/1#1

eom

a loop into the works. Just for thought challenge purposes, no other agenda. Nothing figured out by moi; no lesson intended, just something I ruminate on.

What if it's not really so much about Islam, but about (ancient and deeply ingrained) Arab tribal culture? And how Arab tribal culture has appropriated power over so much of Islam is today through Wahhabism powered by oil money? What if many of the neo-con thinkers hadn't use "Islam" as their target word, but instead replaced it with "Arab tribal culture," how wrong would some of their thoughts/interpretations be then?

I find this thought useful to go back to, often. Example: it really makes clearer the Sunni/Shiite divide for me. (Not just in Iraq, everywhere else too, like Pakistan.)

http://agonist.org/story/2004/11/22/161222/84

http://agonist.org/story/2004/11/23/91054/350

A new radical fundamentalist Persia 'terrorized' the West in the 1970's but no one talked about it like the end of the world as we know it. (Not many even bothered to equate what was happening then with Islam, or to learn about Islam then--as it was just always considered an issue about "those crazy Eye-ranians".)

BTW, I found that even Lean's "Lawrence of Arabia" is worth a re-watch in this vein. Sort of puts one back in the world of where the myths were not about Islam, but about Arabs and the West.

are you hoping to help the neocons define "The enemy" correctly? instead of Islam it's Arab tribal culture to blame for 9/11, for ME "backwardness" as it were? I'm confused, sorry.

by anyone by first defining what label you can put on them, i.e. "neo-con" or whatever? And then just dismiss every point they make? Don't you think in every train of thought, from the whole poltical spectrum, that there might be something right in them?

No I am not trying to do anything to prove anything. I said it above, I say it again. I am thinking. That's all. That's also what think tankers do. Was trying to suggest thinking something "out of the box" from which Roy and Kepel are speaking to. To look at what they are writing from another perspective.

Why do you always assign a motive to my posts? Even why I clearly say there is no motive. Just trying to inspire thought, response, that's all. I have been interested in the Arab tribal culture angle for a very long time. My thoughts on it evolve as I read more. I have made no conclusions on it. You do know that I strongly feel that cultures cannot be changed by force, that they can only be changed over time. I have argued that with you about the gay marriage movement vs. the social conservatives. So I would most definitely not agree with some most neo-cons prescriptions for dealing with the ME!

I wasn't assigning motive, was trying to understand what you meant. at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth again, are you suggesting the source of the problem is arab tribal culture?

really, I didn't mean to offend, but understand, please accept my apology.

It could be. Still think so.

Some quick thoughts.

Part of the problem is that Wahhabism has infiltrated so much of Islam. Certainly many European governments are looking at it this way with their immigrants. Hence, the recent "we eill train our own imams, thank you" school thing in France.

I do think it is at the heart of the sympathy for the Palestinian cause over many other issues in the Arab world. Israel is like an encroachment on their cultural history, sitting there on their ancient lands, the intruders forced upon them by outside agents (the U.N.) A constant poke in the eye, even if they didn't act like they have been acting for quite some time.

I distinctly remember a "Frontline" show around the time of the Afghanistan invasion on the encroachment of Wahhabism (with money, and imported imams) in Indonesia, and the resentment of the local traditional imams that they could not compete, along with a significant Islamic feminist protesting the influence they were having.

I notice the word "Wahabbi" used as a detrimental name by secular and Shiite Iraqis in many unrelated stories, Iraqi blogs.

This is definitely a major part of the meme pushed by the liberal Muslim (who also happens to be a lesbian, BTW) Irshad Manji:

http://discuss.agonist.org/yabbse/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=11338

And she is definitely not what I would label as a "neo-con"! :-)

This thread is very interesting on the latest developments in this regard:

http://agonist.org/story/2004/12/30/23210/198

especially the earlier article linked to there, posted by Marek, by Maria Golia.

As is the recent warming Egypt-Israel relations.

It is something I often see Juan Cole keeping in the back of his mind as well. Especially with his Arabic translation project. The illiteracy rate in the Arab world (not the Islamic world), and the lack of publications of any kind, is what keeps the ancient tribal culture so strong. There is such strong allegiance to tribe over any government of any kind, especially in rural areas where illiteracy reigns. Throw into the mix inflammatory Arab versions of Fox News via satellite TV at your local smoke shop where the men gather.

Add democracy? What happens? Why did so many in Afghanistan, barely literate, vote for Karzai? Who informed them on issues? Who knows?

Is a reason why, I think, both Marek and I try to watch for changes in thought by the intellectuals in the Arab world and post them.

(A hint of wild arta conspiracizing for another day: It is also always in my thoughts that this may be a battle that has been going on for millenia. For me, the historical Jesus Christ, the New Testament, is a story about a radical trying to get people to throw out the old tribal culture in the Arab region for a "new law". Maybe not that important that his tribe happened to be Jewish, probably not as different from other tribes at the time in the big scheme of things. The Romans, they were the seculars.)

but I'll give you my take anyways.

their neofundmentalism is no different than our neofundamentalism, with roots in the same place.

just like people who want  answers in a language they undertand listen to Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Falwell.