I have a sattelite dish and get all the stations, arab, euro, and us.

I would say the best total nightly wrap-up is BBC

The best BREAKING NEWS is Al Jazeera, because they just put shit on without necessarily knowing what it is.

The best embeds are with MSNBC

The worst is probably Fox, which I normally watch, but they just seem kind of out of it. The lack of depth shows during a serious war.

The most watchable is probably overall BBC, especially late at night.

You go recharge. Let us catch up. Favorite food... oysters?

Fred,
How do you get so many channels? I have DirecTv and get BBC and WorldLink TV as well as the International News Channel out of Canada. I don't get Al Jazeera or the others though. What are you using?

Here is the story about the Iraqi who helped save PFC Lynch and his heroics.

MARINE COMBAT HEADQUARTERS, Iraq (April 3, 2203) -- New heroes have surfaced in the rescue of U.S. Army Private First Class Jessica Lynch.

Under the watchful eyes of more than 40 murderous gunmen, the 19-year-old supply clerk laid in Saddam Hussein Hospital suffering from at least one gunshot wound and several broken bones.

As her captors discussed amputating her leg, an Iraqi man leaned to her ear and whispered, "don't worry." Lynch replied with a warm smile.

The man was already working with U.S. Marines to gain the critical information needed to rescue one of the first American prisoners of war in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Just a day earlier, the lawyer from An Nasiryah had walked 10 kilometers to inform American forces he knew where Lynch was being held.

The shocked Marines asked Mohammad to return to the hospital and note certain things. He was tasked with counting the guards and documenting the hospital's layout. Knowing the risk, he agreed to help the young woman he had seen only once.

"I came to the hospital to visit my wife," said the Iraqi man whose wife was a nurse. "I could see much more security than normal."

The man, who, for his protection, will only be identified as Mohammad, asked one of the doctors about the increased security. "He told me there was a woman American soldier there."

Together, the two went to see her. Peering through the room's window, Mohammad saw a sight he claims will stay with him for a life. An Iraqi colonel slapped the soldier who had been captured after a fierce firefight, March 23. First with his palm; then with his backhand.

"My heart stopped," he said in a soft tone. "I knew then I must help her be saved. I decided I must go to tell the Americans."

Just days earlier, Mohammad saw a woman's body dragged through his neighborhood. He said "the animals" were punishing the woman for waving at a coalition helicopter. The brutal demonstration failed to deter him from going to the Marines.

The same day he first saw Lynch, he located a Marine checkpoint. Worried he'd be mistaken for an attacker in civilian clothes, he approached the Marines with his hands high above his head.

"[A Marine sentry] asked, 'what you want?' " Mohammad said. "I want to help you. I want to tell you important information - about Jessica!"

After talking with the Marines, he returned to the hospital to gather information.

"I went to see the security," he said. "I watched where they stood, where they sat, where they ate and when they slept."

While he observed Saddam's henchmen, the notorious regime death squad paid Mohammad's home an unexpected visit. His wife and six-year-old daughter fled to nearby family. Many of his personal belongings, including his car, were seized.

"I am not worried for myself," he said. "Security in Iraq [that is still] loyal to Saddam will kill my wife. They will kill my [child]."

Meanwhile, Mohammad accompanied his friend into Lynch's tightly guarded room. She was covered up to her chin by a white blanket. Her head was bandaged. A wound on the right leg was in bad condition.

"The doctors wanted to cut her leg off," he said "My friend and I decided we would stop it."

Creating numerous diversions, they managed to delay the surgery long enough. "She would have died if they tried it."

Mohammad walked through battles in the city streets for two straight days to get to back to the hospital. His main mission was to watch the guards, but each morning he attempted to keep Lynch's spirits strong with a "good morning" in English.

He said she was brave throughout the ordeal.

When reporting back to the Marines on March 30, he brought five different maps he and his wife made. He was able to point to the exact room the captured soldier was being held in. He also handed over the security layout, reaction plan and times that shift changes occurred.

He had counted 41 bad guys, and determined a helicopter could land on the hospital's roof. It was just the information the Marines needed.

American forces conducted a nighttime raid April 1. Lynch was safely rescued. She has since been transported to a medical facility in Germany.

Mohammad and his family are now in a secure location and have been granted refugee status. He doesn't feel safe in An Nasryah, but he hopes things will improve as the war against the regime advances.

"Iraq is not a safe place while Saddam Hussein is in power," Mohammad said. "He kills the Iraqi people whenever he wants. I believe the Americans will bring peace and security to the people of Iraq."

Mohammad's wife said she wants to volunteer to help injured or sick American forces in the future.

"America came here to help us," he said. "The Marines are brave men. They have been gentle with the Iraqi people. They are taking out Saddam Hussein. For that, we're grateful."

Mohammad's family hopes to meet Lynch in the future.

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/CE7BDEDE147F475685256CFD006B9F76?opendocument

What's right with the media? http://agonist.org .. but I may be biased.

jay@agonist.org
technologist

The Republican Party has the mainstream media embedded.

As far as broadcast news (I don't get cable) I would rate the coverage for balance like this.
From best to worst: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX.

Not to denigrate anything PFC Lynch went through at all, but this whole story smacks of coalition propaganda. The bare truth will be story enough, without all the Hallmark Car/People Magazine inspired flourishes and details.

Is CNN doing news or just playing bad martial music. Do they truly believe that this sort music is needed to tell the story? Maybe they do.

Is CNN doing news or just playing bad martial music. Do they truly believe that this sort music is needed to tell the story? Maybe they do.

traditional media: greatest problem with media today was reporting on PFC Lynch story. Just when I thought, follish me, that I could congratulate much of the media for not getting ghoulish (with speculation), we had "fight to the death stories" with information about the poor woman's injuries (that would seem to support such a shootout) that the family contradicts. Shoddy. Included, suprisingly to me, the Washington Post.

common problem (I've mentioned before): reporting presence of Iraqi gas masks as "posible evidence" of chem weapon attack. No useful information, just specualtion. Give it a rest. Or tell us soemthign potentialyl useful, like what kind they are.

also bad: media soapboxers Arnett, O'Reily (esp. on Arnett), BBC overall good but when it's snide, it's just not journalism, and the Al-Jaz reporters who have given speeches. These are a few examples of what I consider bad jounalism.

Good work abounds, in my view laregly from print media, which can benefit from the time delay.

Following the format of the first poster:

Where I get my war news: In order of most watched: MSNBC, CNN, The Agonist, Inside VC's warblog, The Command Post

Best wrap up: The Agonist

The best BREAKING NEWS: The Agonist

The best embeds: MSNBC

The worst is probably Fox, however, I like the Sky news embeds.

What the media has gotten right: when the let live coverage through like David Bloom and Bob Arnot (especially last night) on MSNBC and that first Umm Qssr activity from Sky News.

What the media has gotten wrong: Soft hitting questions at CENTCOM and the Pentagon. Very one sided war analysis based on the channel. CNN has the widest variety of war analysts. FOX is way far to the right and MSNBC is consistantly centrist (excepting McCafferty).

What happened to the Russian web site?

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en

The 4-3-03 update only quotes the words of Rumsfeld and General Meyers. The counter-claims and cross-dialogue of the war in the international and national press has dissipated. Al-Jazeera is unplugged in Iraq.

All seems well with "The Plan." But is it?

I good cartoon on the media, check out mark fiore's animation at www.motherjones.com

What happened to the Russian web site?

looks like Putin changed bookie and found better odds on the other team....

Ok, this isn't strictly a "news" story, but someone recently mentioned the old (January 2001) "Our Long National Nightmare of Peace and Prosperity Is Finally Over" story in the Onion.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3701/bush_nightmare.html

Went back to re-read and this looks amazingly prescient now...

From an objective Canadian's standpoint I use:
CBC, Agonist, CNN, BBC and Al Jazeera.
Commondreams.org is a great collection of editorials and news from a "liberal" persective.

ALSO

Al Jazeera's temp english site is up and running at the following link

http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/index.asp?cu_no=1&lng=0&template_id=1&temp_type=44

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/world/2003/reporters_log/default.stm

Where is the Iraqi Army?

Joe,

the iraqwar website's english translation page is running about a day behind the russian page.

go to babelfish.altavista.com and type in www2.iraqwar.ru in the "translate web page" slot.

You will get a different page than the english page.

who will run Umm Qusr?

http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/article.asp?cu_no=1&item_no=1400&version=1&template_id=277&parent_id=258

Pragmatic Dissent,

Thank you for posting that I have been waiting for an english version of aljazeera.net since this war started.

CSPAN broadcasts Canadian and BBC, my favorites along with Agonist. American news channels are almost interchangeable, although Fox seems to have sunk to new lows. MSNBC has seemed to step up with their inbeds. Remember these networks are typically dwelling on Chandra Levy, OJ, JonBenet, etc.. So the oppurtunity to report something as significant as a war might be beyond their capability.

I don't have cable and at work I go to the BBC, mainly cuz its free. I'd probably watch ABC but they expect you to pony up 10 bucks a month to watch ABC news live. Talk about bluntly making money off this war.

I'm wondering if I'm imagining this or if I caught the cable news stations in a bit of time shifting that overly dramatized events in a way that makes this all more like an edited reality TV series than the news.

A couple of nights ago I was watching one station (I'm pretty sure it was MSNBC) and they were talking to a reporter in Kuwait during an air raid alert. The reporter went through the whole discussion wearing a gas mask and then the all clear was sounded. I changed channels (I think it was CNN but I'm not sure) and they were having a similar discussion with a reporter, only while the raid was finished on MSNBC it was somehow still going on while I was watching what I think was CNN. Then 45 minutes later, watching Fox (I'm pretty sure it was Fox), the reporter announced "breaking news, this just in" and read a report of a missile bein fired at Kuwait but treating it like it was something that "just" happened. In the morning I checked and there had been only one missile fired at Kuwait that night, but it had been, at least so it seemed to me, reported as though it were "real-time" at three different times on three different cable stations. Am I imagining this? I'm having enough trouble keeping track of things because sites like the Agonist scoop traditional media so often I'm feeling like I "know" just about everything that gets treated as breaking news, and I'm feeling as though the media are time shifting stories in order to give them more dramatic impact. But I could swear the time shifting really did happen with respect to a bombing incident in Kuwait City.

Sean, tell us it's not the half-rotted herring... please.

Article listing various casualties of the war on objective media:

http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/0403-12.htm

A problem I suspect with the embeds is that when you put people together in a harsh environment where you depend on those around you for survival objectivity is often skewed by affinity for those protecting your life. This has often resulted in the first person plural "WE" being used to describe the joint actions of the military and the embeds. The ready access of the embeds to war footage also tends to create a miopia where the American/Iraqi context is more simple news than say, investigative reporting of the verity of the 5,000 willing martyrs travelling in from Syria and Jordan. Maybe foreign news bureaus are stretched to the max, but the surrounding areas such as Iran, and Turkey should be as much the story, as say, whether or not Iraqis are celebrating.

War Commanders Report 4 Deadly Accidents
American forces in Iraq had four deadly accidents, three of which may have been caused by friendly fire, officials said Thursday.

Defense Department officials said they were looking into the possibility that one U.S. fighter jet was downed by an American Patriot missile and that a second jet fired on Army ground forces.

http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V9154.AP-War-US-Military.html

i went to aljazeerah.us and i get some "unable to fetch domain message"

I don't think FOX ought to be counted as a news organization.

Hannity and O'Reilly belong with the Black and Tans.

But then, the Black and Tans are all dead aren't they?

The job the media has done? Hard to tell. The embeds are a whole new perspective, the coverage is still fairly anodyne. What strikes me the most is the total, utter and complete ignorance of military affairs. Almost none of the TV press seem to have as much as cracked a single volume of military history. If they had, we could all be breathing easier rather than sweating over the plan... which is STILL working brilliantly, in case no-one noticed...

bb said>

Great job SP but this was a better site when only anti-war people were here.
I wish you could silence all those freepers, wackos, and bush supporters.

Posted by bb at April 3, 2003 06:36 PM
___________________________________________________________

My fascination with the Agonist began a few days ago when I stumbled upon a link to this great site. Of course you know this is coming. I am a freeper, wacko, and bush supporter. I did not know that the original site contained only anti-war people. I have been pondering this. I like the debate, since I know folks who are anti-war. It is a delicate situation when you have to talk to them. I have learned many things here on how the anti-war base there opinions. And I have used this information to not tick people off.

This bb ticked me off. There was earlier mention of Bush Bot's or something of that nature, bb sounds like a drone. No brain, but programmed to do the bidding of his people.

I tried to say this nice.

Kerry is one hell of a guy! lmao

Lucky Freeper

I wish Opie and Anthony wouldv'e have been so foolish several months ago. It was fun listening to their commentary on events....made the afternoon go by...would've been a blast to hear them talk about this war on my way home from work.

I agree with Duff. I for one am sick of the media playing the "expectations" game with the planners.

I laughed last week when a reporter asked Rummy something about "how the plan was to do this" and Rummy interrupted him and said "I don't think you have the plan." Totally deadpan. It was pretty funny.

Best news reporting: BBC World News (CBC is a close runner up)

Worst news reporting: Fox

Most interesting to follow: The Agonist

Look, regardless of who is reporting (from Aljazeera to Fox) everyone is biased in some way. The US news media is owned by major conglomerates who only care about their bottom line - that means they will only report "newsertainment". It doesn't have to be accurate, but it does have to get ratings (which are flagging - AOL/Time/Warner was looking at spinning off CNN with ABC News, which is owned by Disney, because neither of them are making a profit!). Anyway, I think we're learning that all war news all the time is something that none of us can watch. We need more accurate reporting which can not happen with continuous 24 hour a day reporting of the news. I happen to like catching a half hour of BBC World News - it's the best recap you can get. Clear, concise, to the point, and with very little mis-reporting (now that we're well into the war and everyone has stopped their initial freaking out). The other thing that makes the BBC head and shoulders above the rest (ESPECIALLY the US news media) is their professionalism and the hard hitting questions they ask - they don't flinch or shy away when interviewing someone, they play devil's advocate and put them on the spot. That's the way US news used to be back during (and before) the previous Gulf War. Nowadays you can find more professionalism and investigative reporting on local newscasts. That shows exactly how far the nationals have fallen. I'm tired of watching vapid, plastic models who can't read their lines off the cue card that are right in front of them. If I wanted crap like that, I'd watch one of the so-called "reality" television shows.

Regardless of my above ranting, folks - take everything you hear or read with a grain of salt. Question everything, and confirm it all before you believe in it. That's the best way to watch the news.

If I was a reporter in a Rummy press conference I'd probably get thrown-out. I wouldn't be able to stand asking him a question and then have him tell me "you're phrasing of this question is incorrect" BS. A day will come when some reporter's gonna bite back at him....when stuttering john going to corner him LOL

US Post-war plan may not be legal

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1048313453147&p=1012571727085

UN spells out limits of US post-conflict rights
By Mark Turner at the United Nations
Published: April 3 2003 19:41 | Last Updated: April 3 2003 19:41

Mark Malloch Brown, head of the United Nations Development Programme, said on Thursday the US would have little choice but to return to the UN in establishing a post-conflict Iraq administration, stressing it had no international right to take over Iraq's oil industry, and warning that rebuilding costs would far exceed current oil revenues.

"Under the Geneva Conventions, [the occupying power is] only able to deal with day to day administration: you are not able to change the constitution, or make legal commitments going ahead many years," said Mr Malloch Brown.
[. . . ]

best site for breaking news banners (without too much info):

www.cyberpresse.ca - they have stuff that comes up hours later on cnn, bbc or even the afp site. updated minute to minute.

in french though.

i've found the french press coverage (afp, le monde, liberation, lexpress, lefigaro, rfi, fr2) to be the best. they are often the first to report news, they are unbiased, and have stories that other often miss altogether. i find all american press to be too biased, so are the brits, and of course al-jazeera.

the canadians are also very good. balanced and up to date. www.cbc.ca for the english (and you get the hockey scores too) and www.radio-canada.ca for the french.

Short list of things I find highly objectionable in the American media coverage of this regrettable war:

1. Failure to summarize the existing news into brief, informative, digestible pieces, or to help us mentally organize events in time and space.

2. Failure to clearly discriminate between news and opinion, between reporting events and projecting events.

3. Embedding spin throughout what passes for real news, thus allowing al Jazeera to actually look more balanced and impartial than we look.

4. Ignoring blatant hypocricy on the part of Coalition brass (such as POW photo rules being broken by both sides, or the eagerness to report enemy casualties vs. reluctance to report Coalition casualties, or the evident repulsion felt for standard asymmetric warfare tactics on the low-tech side - guerrilla ambush - vs. the evident enthusiasm for the opposite tactics on the high-tech side - smart bombs).

5. Starting with poor assumptions (such as suggesting gas masks are firm evidence of intent to use chemical WMD - all modern armies and SWAT teams carry masks!) and ending with timid qualifiers (such as the complete absence of firm WMD evidence in Southern Iraq so far - now that's an impressive non-find). Argumentation like this would never stand up in a logical debate.

6. Absence of intelligent graphical analysis, as opposed to emotional graphical displays. It is amazing that with the technology at hand one has to scrape for informative, detailed maps or charts. However, pictures of soldiers framed by explosions are myriad. How would you like to be the engineer who has to diagnose why a bridge collapsed from nothing but a picture of the catastrophe, and no data?

7. Insistence on inventing, or puffing up, news when there really isn't any in the current news cycle, often drifting into human interest stories as if they really mattered at the geopolitical level of reality (do they?).

8. Predilection to take highly questionable stories and super-heat them until it makes no difference if the story was ever true or not - it has been imprinted on the American psyche either way.

That's just a start but all I can stand to think about right now.

Good work Sean-Paul, for avoiding most all the above. I am no Baath enthusiast and I heartily support our troops. I just want America and its media to be deeply honorable and highly competent - is that too much to ask?

Wihout any question FOX is the WORST!

Lack of depth, distortion of message, and they are usually latest with any breaking news. I have just about stopped watching them entirely.

Best, BBC and of the US major networks I rate NBC and ABC fairly close. CBS just doesnt cut it, too much drama amd not enough substance.

Sadly, most slant too far to the right. Some of the popular ultra-conservative ideas are poisoning our culture.

Maybe there is hope, but I am still looking. The Agonist is a good alternative

U.N? An ill body which hasn't kept its promnises to anyone or to any country. Where was U.N when Saddam suppressed and killed thousands of Iraqis? What has U.N done with those countries, U.N members, which has violated humanright, has violently tolerated minor groups, and has jailed journalist with opposing views? .. UUUUU . NNNNN a piece of crap

Fox Rocks! sorry folks!

Get outside and watch the hawk fly go get some gasoline

Bravo Karl, bravo!

You know, all this "predilection" talk reminds me of the "yellow journalism" that helped to start and sustain the Spanish-American war in the late 1800s.

Remember: we must learn from the mistakes of history, or we are doomed to repeat them.

lolman:

I think you've missed a few discussions here. Do you work for the U.N.? No? Then how do you know its inner-workings?

An original thought would be most welcomed.

In this order: Wesley Clark on CNN, Brian Williams on MSNBC, Keith Olberman on MSNBC, and anyone except Lou Dobbs CNN International.

Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. Caussidiere for Danton, Louis Blanc for Robespierre, the Montagne of 1848 to 1851 for the Montagne of 1793 to 1795, the nephew for the uncle. And the same caricature occurs in the circumstances of the second edition of George Bush.

a little change of topic-

was i the only one who thought that bush's speech today looked like a nazi rally?

for someone who was AWOL for months, sure seemed to enjoy being surrounded by all those troops

Four Czech students immolate themselves to protest the war against Iraq.

http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3462--315333-,00.html

newest war news severe acute pounding search for a suspect newer black honda three more charges

The "Prince of Darkness" wants to change the U.N. Charter to include regime change. Sorry if this is old reading to some but I found it interesting and thought I'd share.

Start Quote:
Four Czech students immolate themselves to protest the war against Iraq.

http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3462--315333-,00.html
Posted by girlmudgeon at April 3, 2003 09:27 PM
End Quote:

Talk about Darwinism in action.

Mad Dog

Sorry, here is the link.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3013perle.html

Russian website:

http://www.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en

karl marx - I'm going to have to look ALL of that up, but it was quite spectacular sounding.

Per Mad Dogs post - we must be going backward in time.

Red Cross horrified by number of dead civilians

Canadian Press

OTTAWA — Red Cross doctors who visited southern Iraq this week saw "incredible" levels of civilian casualties including a truckload of dismembered women and children, a spokesman said Thursday from Baghdad.

Roland Huguenin, one of six International Red Cross workers in the Iraqi capital, said doctors were horrified by the casualties they found in the hospital in Hilla, about 160 kilometres south of Baghdad.

"There has been an incredible number of casualties with very, very serious wounds in the region of Hilla," Huguenin said in a interview by satellite telephone.

"We saw that a truck was delivering dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children. It was an awful sight. It was really very difficult to believe this was happening."

Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of "bombs, projectiles."

"At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad.

"There will be investigations I am sure."

Baghdad and Basra are coping relatively well with the flow of wounded, said Huguenin, estimating that Baghdad hospitals have been getting about 100 wounded a day.

Most of the wounded in the two large cities have suffered superficial shrapnel wounds, with only about 15 per cent requiring internal surgery, he said.

But the pattern in Hilla was completely different.

"In the case of Hilla, everybody had very serious wounds and many, many of them small kids and women. We had small toddlers of two or three years of age who had lost their legs, their arms. We have called this a horror."

At least 400 people were taken to the Hilla hospital over a period of two days, he said -- far beyond its capacity.

"Doctors worked around the clock to do as much as they could. They just had to manage, that was all."

The city is no longer accessible, he added.

Red Cross staff are also concerned about what may be happening in other smaller centres south of Baghdad.

"We do not know what is going on in Najaf and Kabala. It has become physically impossible for us to reach out to those cities because the major road has become a zone of combat."

The Red Cross was able to claim one significant success this week: it played a key role in re-establishing water supplies at Basra.

Power for a water-pumping station had been accidentally knocked out in the attack on the city, leaving about a million people without water. Iraqi technicians couldn't reach the station to repair it because it was under coalition control.

The Red Cross was able to negotiate safe passage for a group of Iraqi engineers who crossed the fire line and made repairs. Basra now has 90 per cent of its normal water supply, said Huguenin.

Huguenin, a Swiss, is one of six international Red Cross workers still in Baghdad. The team includes two Canadians, Vatche Arslanian of Oromocto, N.B., and Kassandra Vartell of Calgary.

The Red Cross expects the humanitarian crisis in Iraq to grow and is calling for donations to help cope. The Red Cross Web site is: www.redcross.ca

tigers young cubs the war will not be televised

I have to say that I am very concerned with CNN's presentation of "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ". This is not 'High Noon' and G. W. Bush is not Gary Cooper. This war is not a movie.

Saving Private Jessica? Not only does this catch phase diminish the ordeal of this soldier, but it again re-envisions the lives of real people as some kind of movie.

I am offended and disturbed by such a shallow and inflammatory presentation of the news. CNN is the most trusted source of news? Not anymore. Not by me. And Fox never was.

Does anyone have any good information on Syria? I have a feeling that there will be some major provacation soon with Hezbollah, or some administration discovery. Any prognosticators think that there will be cause for war with the Assad, it seems that they would be the next easiest target with the National Security Strategy. Anyone?

Best US media coverage:
Daily Show, CSPAN

Yea Opie and Anthony rocked!!!! This would have made great radio. Props to the city of Philadelphia for opening back up Chestnut St. in front of Independence Hall. Imagine complete restriction to the birthplace of the Land of Liberty! Shame on them for closing it. Hurray for the reopening of freedom!!! Norton RULES!!!!!!!!!

Anybody watching Baghdad? It is REALLY quiet there now! And when a plane flies overhead, the anti-aircraft has quit.

I don't think it was supposed to go like this. Most of those people that died hate SH and he knows it thats maybe why such things are concentrated in the south ie human shields. I think as much of the blame rests with him as it does with the Americans bombing. I hope they lost their lives for a better Iraq but I guess we'll have to see. It's all very sad.

Nica

"was i the only one who thought that bush's speech today looked like a nazi rally?"

--michelle.

OK, Michelle, enlighten me. How were Nazi rallies different?

What's the media doing right?
Reporting on observed facts. Non-interpretive reporting. Background documentaries on Discovery/Times channel.

What's being done badly? Analysis and "expert " commentary. Almost all media outlets seem to perpetrate this rubbish some of the time. On CNN and the BBC it's sometimes the bulk of their "coverage" - It 's almost always based on almost no knowledge and could be reduced to this formula:

Media Rep: "we have 1 five minute segment to fill and there's not much info coming to the front, could you shovel bull for five minutes"
Expert: "I'd be happy to. In my experience, operations like this ."
Media Rep: Thanks, Expert.

A waste of packets, airtime, or paper.

richard perle is getting involved in canadian politics now. called the canadian pm a "lame duck" in an interview with the national post.

war with canada next?

hot hot spot delivery system and forward deploy it now

The participants were all german?

The speaker had a moustache?

They spoke german?

ummm...it was in black and white, or on the radio, not in color?

;-}

News Now: Iraq is a pretty good news portal. Its where this Nasdaq story just appeared: UK, US special forces enter Baghdad during blackout

The Guardian, the Times, the Sun, the Daily Express are all reporting this.

They are charging that the US used carbon blackout bombs to shut lights so they could insert special forces.

Check out the last graph in the Nasdaq story.

are: perle

Someone should remind Perle that at least Chretien was elected with a solid majority.

If Perle really has power behind his mouth, I might just have to revoke my US citizenship afterall.

I know, I know, it's supposed to be just breaking news, and this isn't, but allow me just this one. Michelle, you were the only one who thought Bush's speech today looked like a Nazi rally, or perhaps you meant to say, as the Iraqi Information Minister said today, a "racist, Nazi, fascist" rally.

The BLU-114/B is a special-purpose munition for attacking electrical power infrastructure. Although very little is known about this highly classified weapon, reportedly it functions by dispensing a number of submunitions which in turn disperse large numbers of chemically treated carbon graphite filaments which short-circuit electrical power distribution equipment such as transformers and switching stations. The weapon is sometimes referred to as a "soft bomb" since its effects are largely confined to the targetted electrical power facility, with minimal risk of collateral damage.

This previously undisclosed weapon, carried by the F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter, was used for the first time on 02 May 1999 as part of Operation ALLIED FORCE strikes against Serbia. Following these attacks lights went out over 70 per cent of the country. The munition was subsequently used on the night of 07 May 1999 to counter Serbian efforts to restore damage caused by the initial attack.

yes, it did look like one. small man surrounded by military looking men in brown shirts.

the pictures just screamed deja-vu to me.

unfortunate he decided to stage it that way, but that's the way it looked.

The biggest media failure (and political failure as well) has been the almost total fixation on the day-to-day events and ignoring the big long term issues brought about by this war. Especially in regards to what Syria and Iran do. If either or both countries sponsor terrorist attacks on our occupying troops, W might invade in response. Just an educated guess, but I think our chances of a war with Iran and or Syria in the next year are about 50/50.

not weapons of mass desruction war in iraq from london arron brown just around the corner still photography by 93 to 0 7 blasts south of the city

After passing through Baghdad,

WHICH WAY?

I vote West and take out Syria.

Of course East and crush Iran between the forces in Afganhastan and Iraq.

Choices, choices, it so hard to decide.

Amis

Something's not right. There are simply too many Iraqi soldiers and equipment not accounted for. On PBS tonight, two generals said that things felt "too fragile." They noted the same question--where the heck are these guys (on the Lehrer news hour).

Guys, something smells. Is anyone else bothered by this or am I simply paranoid?

CNN is reporting that the blackout in bagdad was imposed by the Iraqis themselves for security reasons. Amazing how anti-american reporters saw carbon filament bombs that do not exist. They are also forcing folks out of thier homes and placing them in between the airport and the city. A huge mass of human shields. Great guys these Iraqis.

There is nothing worse than the constant coverage of "personal stories of the war" which are constantly and overwhelmly exploited. Pfc. lynch's ordeal has been sloppily reproted, but the most egregious footage (and i saw a lot of it on CNN, which i usually like) is of family member after family member saying how they felt about it (how do you think they felt about it? happy and relieved duh). One family member's reaction is ok for five to tens econds. that's the story, move on. Today some distant friend or relative described how Lynch would be received and how she would spend her first day or so back -- just guessing, much of it. That's not reporting, and it is not news. And this was during the blackout of Baghdad -- you would think that would be more newsworthy.

Media should reports the facts without the constant editorializing and the "of course we hope they're safe," and "thanks for your efforts," etc. The job of the media isn't to support the troops -- it is to report on what the troops are doing. When the media does this -- Aaaron Brown, a former fave does it incessantly -- they become actors in the drama instead of observers who tell us what they see and hear and know.

MSNBC has had the best coverage, I think, and their war analyst -- that guy from the LExington Foundation or whatever -- seems to present a less jingoist, constant ad for the armed forces punditry that you see from the retired generals.

amazing amazing PBS Frontline tonight

blair's war

as well as to be expected this is just practice dance over the universe

I don't know Adel, I think E-bombs are very real. Do a search on google.

America is not at war. I should know because
I am sitting in an American city right now
and don't have the slightest fear of a bomb
coming through the roof. There are no enemy
troops rolling down the street. Actually,
I don't know that for a fact but I'll be
damned if I'm going to get up and look.
The TV people are lucky this year. They have something to give me and Joe sixpack to
watch between football and baseball seasons. Fortunately there are 200 million
more people just like me and so there is
no problem of feeling any personal remorse
for what is happening thanks to our tax
dollars.

Perhaps that's why the US General on Fox just said what the hell we control the rest of the country, we don't necessarily need Baghdad.

A very interesting story, well worth reading:

http://www.assyrianchristians.com/i_was_wrong_mar_26_03.htm

Okay, it's daylight now in Baghdad, and it seems logical to assume that the U.S. forces will be on the move. So where the heck is the news?

Yes, Adel, amazing how credulous fools believe everything they want to hear on TV. I would ascribe this to severe cognitive dissonance, but I think it's actually just stupidity.
Hitler is laughing in his grave, wherever that may be.

John McKinzey,
I disagree. Bush has shown himself to be monomaniacal. His administration has primarily discussed the Israeli/Palestinian issue as their next objective, so I don't think you'll see another conflict like this without obvious signs from him. However, he does need something to keep us from seeing the real issues as we head into the next set of elections - who knows what that will be. I'm sure that in his mind he's saving Iran and Syria for his second term "to do list".

time for a quote a propos the way stalinists (like Saddam Hussein) think about their citizens:

Joseph Stalin - "Millions of deaths can be just a statistic, and one death can become a tragedy"

As you all know, non-US/British news sources can be interesting. Some can be translated with Google language services....

This story from Le Figaro describes extensive bunkers under Bagdad.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lefigaro.fr%2F&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

From Der Spiegel, video of possible chemical weapons evidence
http://www.spiegel.de/video/0,4916,1176,00.html
03,04,2003
According to data of the American television station NBC US special-purpose forces in an abandoned Militaercamp in Halabdscha of referring to Iraqi chemistry weapons found. Samples of the found substances were gone on a trip for investigation into the USA. So far Washington proofs for the existence of Iraqi massenvernichtungswaffen is missing.

From Der Spiegel, video of Iraqi army preparations in Bagdad
http://www.spiegel.de/video/0,4916,1178,00.html
03,04,2003
In Bagdad prepare Iraqi soldiers and members of the governing Baath party Saddam Husseins for the attack of the American troops. From US military circles it means that American armed forces already advanced up to 10 kilometers to the city boundary of the Iraqi capital. Meanwhile it succeeded to shoot Iraqi fighters with small weapons a "Black Hawk" helicopter. To data from the pentagon died thereby sieved American soldiers came.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0403-06.htm

Fisk.

What's wrong with the media?

Geraldo Rivera and Oliver North as "journalists".

*shakes head and wonders*

morning night is that the kind of thing they are talking about?unspeakable clearly important at almost every level take out the barracks

Why would the US give up evidence of WMD before the war is over?

"was i the only one who thought that bush's speech today looked like a nazi rally?"

--michelle.

one disappointment in this type of media is people writing things like this and the comparison to all things Nazi.

Don't you realize this can apply to most rallies-insert President around military and...

And the comparisons to Bush propaganda to Nazi propaganda, and etc. Propaganda is propaganda there's only so many forms of propaganda and both sides use it and both sides can compare the other to either a socialist or nazi example so let's get beyond that.

...and this includes Orwellian allusions...funny how both sides can use examples of this to bolster their arguments.

modern highway hugh level of psychological pressure stop saying embedded SVP

Is anyone getting any new information -- that is, news -- from any source anywhere right now, or is it all just rehashes of yesterday?

Reuters reports 320 Iraqis killed in airport fighting. Also lists numbers of various types of weapons and equipment eliminated.

Saw on the TV news (first I've watched since the war began) that 2 US soldiers were killed in an otherwise unspecified 'suicide' attack.

as far as tv media. i don't have cable and it drives me crazy to have to watch katy couric all morning to get the faintest glimpse of news and it's always at least 12 hours old and they play it like it's breaking news.

I'm astounded that their entire daily output of news is maybe an hour a day concerning the news and that's on the top end.

But my analysis: ABC: Jennings gives too much of his little jabs in. Brokaw drives me crazy with his over the top seriousness (but I watch him)and Dan Rather I'd rather not.

his other thingies with the troops didn't look like nazi rallies. just today's.

Ok look, I have always been on the fence about the war and that is why I like this site so much. However, I'd like some feedback on the following audio clip. I'll post it in the forum as well.

http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

I flip thru cnn, fox, msnbc, abc, cbs and surf alot of websites, left, right, and down the middle (there is no middle, it's all in our minds!).

I have to say agonist.org wins the award for being the best clearinghouse of information. It's like panning for gold here and there's plenty to go around.

I have to agree with an earlier posting on the embeds. There is a real mixed bag out there, everyone has someone good, someone not so good, etc. Arnot (not Arnette!) had a pretty gripping segment last night (1am-2am eastern, I believe). Compelling stuff, although I felt the woman anchoring the piece was major-media typical. The talk-overs by the hostess/anchor were seriously annoying and inappropriate. She should have sat quietly and let the audio take over completely. She was only getting into the way with her repeated summaries "for those just joining us..". All they needed was a small tagline at the bottom to describe the situation simply and let the audio roll.

CHALLENGE: Has anyone found an audio link to this broadcast from last night? It's worth listening to if you missed it, despite some of it's shortcomings. Some good moments as they harbored some fleeing civilians mid-battle. I was on the edge of my seat and fully engaged while getting a glimpse into how intense even a small, seemingly insignificant skirmish can be.

The scrolls. oh. my. head. If I have to wonder one more time whether the "1 Marine killed, 4 wounded" was just now, or from yesterday, or Oh, maybe that was the same 1+4 from three days ago? I hate that. Half the scrolls are old, oftentimes to the point that the facts later corrected the initial reports, yet the now incorrect scroll continues. Jeeze. Get in the game.

In defense of O'Reilly, to the person who complained about that "not being journalism". Uhm. Yeah. It's not supposed to be. O'Reilly isn't a journalist, doesn't claim to be, and has a show that doesn't present itself as a news program, so I think the complaint is misplaced entirely.

From the heart:
I thing the whole concept of a *free press* can get strained a bit during a military conflict. When you are (for instance) a (presumably loyal) citizen of a nation embroiled in a war it's gotta be cutting against the grain to walk on the air and be "entirely objective and impartial", at least if you're heart is behind your nation and it's efforts to win the war. On par with what one should reasonably expect, some seem to reign in their biases and try harder to stay the course in the middle, while others allow their left/right colors to bleed thru a little more during these times.

I'm not sure how I feel about it all. I want nothing short of the truth, while being entirely mindful of what should be expected from "responsible war time journalism". How many here think it would be appropriate for a U.S. journalist to disclose U.S. war plans if they were to be "come across"? Is that responsible? Should that be cloaked under "impartiality" or "freedom of the press". I think not. You might as well be the enemy at that point. It's a $#()*!@ war. What part of that don't some people get?

I have one side of me that thinks, for very practical and not at all for political reasons, that Anti-War, Anti-Administration politics, biases, and agendas that exist pre-war should melt in the face of an actual war. Unless, of course, you honestly think it would be best for your country of which you are a citizen to actually lose the war or do poorly in it. I that case, by all means protest and let your feelings and allegiances be known, just don't cloak it in something that it is not.

I think this is why so many conservatives take issue with anti-war movements DURING a war. The pre-dominately "black and white" thinking crowd of conservatives cannot fathom the "many shades of gray" thinking liberals and their notion of jeering the "home team" during a conflict which means life and death to those who fight it and could hold grave consequences for this, their nation, were we to do poorly or lose the war.

Please don't defend this as "we don't jeer the home team, we jeer the owner/management of the home team". It doesn't make much difference to the "black and white" crowd, and as a USAF GW1 veteran, I gotta say it doesn't make much difference to the majority of members on "the home team", either. If you're booing the administration during a war, you might as well be booing the troops. With your words you wish them well, but with your actions you do them harm.

To harp and find fault and snipe at your own country's leadership during something so incredibly serious as a war, while admirably idealistic, is entirely self destructive. Think not?, then think on whether these are mere words or true wisdom which stand the test of time:

"A house divided against itself cannot stand", or to paraphrase the Bible with some good old American: "United we stand, divided we fall". These aren't just catchy phrases. In troubled times it's an absolute necessity. Be it your family, your company, your circle of friends, or your nation.

I think it merits some serious inflection when someone wishes to exercise the very freedoms that have been, lest we forget, WON IN WAR in order to criticize a their nation that IS AT WAR. The true measure of freedom, in my opinion, would be to lay down that right to express dissent, freely and willfully, joining in a unified front of support with those whom you might not philosophically agree with... all the while being confident that when the conflict has ended and your country has won, your rights have been fully preserved and you are free to return, willfully, to your position of dissent. To me, it's just that black and white.

While I fully respect the right to dissent, I question entirely the wisdom of dissension in the face of an ongoing war. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. These are my well formed opinions. Go form your own. =D

lb

Re: Mark Fiore's animations, you can get them directly from his web site at http://www.markfiore.com/ .

A couple recent ones I thought were good are:
* Liberation
* The Blusterizer

You folks are certainly entertaining... I'll say that.
I just want to see what happens when we find Fort Saddam...

pardon mi senor your papers fox holes suicide bus having said that came charging down the road

Geoff Hoon vs Robert Fisk and the UK Independent

http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=393737

"Mr Hoon's handling of the news from this war has been characterised by exaggeration, half-truth and backtracking. It was Mr Hoon who claimed on BBC Radio that local people had "certainly" risen up in Basra. When asked how he knew, he blustered. It does not seem to have been wholly true. It was Mr Hoon who claimed that chemical suits found by advancing coalition troops showed "categorically" that Saddam was preparing to use chemical weapons, to be contradicted by Admiral Sir Michael Boyce, Chief of the Defence Staff, who warned against jumping to conclusions. Last night, the MoD was forced to concede that an estimate of PoW numbers given only hours earlier by Mr Hoon was wildly inaccurate."

one problem with Bush's speeches lately is that his background is often comprised of military personnel.

I was against this war from the beginning... now it looks like we'll win the war but I'm concerned about the peace... PLUS what about all these other nations in the "axis of evil"... why hasn't the media focused on what will come after? Do we really want to be a nation on a constant war footing?

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-iraq-baghdad-toll.html

You have to remember that Fox News Channel is composed of a number of what would not be referred to as news programs. There are many editorial and discussion programs mixed in with [i]some[/i] news. One has to be able to tell the difference.

I have no problem making this determination and since they have some of the best looking women on news channels, I watch it the most.

NY Times:

"In all, there were two, division-size forces moving roughly in tandem to the edge of the capital. American commanders said more than 2,000 Iraqi troops were killed during the advance north."

was i the only one who thought that michele's post today looked like total flamebait?

did anyone see wolfowitz on 60 minutes last night with the people that he plans to have governing iraq??..they are iraqis that have been living in usa, but they look jewish..is this possible?

Come check out my new action figure:)

http://lolslideshow.com/index.cfm?page_id=87

Bring it out smokin'

Start Quote:
Does anyone have any good information on Syria? I have a feeling that there will be some major provacation soon with Hezbollah, or some administration discovery. Any prognosticators think that there will be cause for war with the Assad, it seems that they would be the next easiest target with the National Security Strategy. Anyone?

Posted by Hardboiled at April 3, 2003 09:37 PM
End Quote:

With only 4-5 divisions in Iraq, you dont get into another war with the first one not over. And even then, not. The talk between the US and Syria is probably just hot air talk by both sides. THe US doesnt want to to get into another conflict, and Syria knows it has no chance in hell of winning a conflict with the US (not to mention they still have to garrison the Isreali border).

Mad Dog

Michele:
I didn't see Bush's speech. If you can call it that. But I listened to it. Let me tell ya, that man is an embarassment to thinking Americans of every political stripe. What a load of jingoistic bullying claptrap. Who writes this stuff? The man would scare me if I thought he was capable of an original thought. Don't get me wrong, I support this war, because we should have done this 12 years ago. But I will be working hard hopefully elect a president I can be proud of. I wonder if Tony Blair will be available . . .

USGP calling on UN to invoke Resolution 377

http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/0403-11.htm

Michelle
your relentless critisism and pessimism over the last few days is really starting to bore me
your points would be better taken if you could be a little more objective
hopefully you will take this as constructive critisism , cause I mean no hard feelings
and yes I do realize the hippocracy of this comment
please dont take offense

Speaking of Geraldo...anyone happen to know if they finally threw his sorry butt outta Iraq??

well thought out argument lan boy but, you have to remember the vietnamwar, and how the americans really were overdoing it with the killing of civilians, not to mention the fact that they really didn't belong there.

would the vietnam war have stopped if people didn't dissent? and should that go for all countries, or just the usa? a lot of wars have been stopped by people who dissented.

if the usa, for example, were to reach a ceasefire now with the iraqis, and saddam hussein were to leave iraq for exile somewhere (it's a small point), and the iraqi regime collaborated with the usa to stop the fighting, bring food and order to the people and perhaps discuss the nature of the regime to follow, would that be such a bad thing? woulnd't it save a few lives, both iraqi and american? and, if dissenters in iraq or in the usa had caused that, would that be so treasonous, or would it be a service to their country?

i think it's the latter.

Yeah Ohio Mom I think he just got the boot today. Im my opinion I wouldn't want him anywhere near me if I were a soldier.

Start Quote:
Something's not right. There are simply too many Iraqi soldiers and equipment not accounted for. On PBS tonight, two generals said that things felt "too fragile." They noted the same question--where the heck are these guys (on the Lehrer news hour).

Guys, something smells. Is anyone else bothered by this or am I simply paranoid?
Posted by kimster at April 3, 2003 09:53 PM
End Quote:

What you are smelling is the lack of information on the regular iraqi divisions (other than the 51st mech and 11th infantry). While normally a lack of information on the 15 or so unlocated (at least, as far as we know) would be disturbing, I have to wonder if the regular army divisions have just gone home.

We also have to consider the possibility of chemical warfare by the iraqis. Unless you think they have atropine dispensers for no reason (and no, the US doesnt employ nerve gas).

Mad Dog

that rumsfield is a real statesman isn't he?

ikh you mentioned:
"I might just have to revoke my US citizenship afterall."

I'll buy you a one way ticket to North Korea. Biz Class.

Quote:
that rumsfield is a real statesman isn't he?

Good observation, but he doesn't need to be, does he? I admire his directness, and I get the impression he is scrupulously honest. Still, that comment about "old Europe" probably cost us about 60 Billion in coalition support . . .

everybody loves rumsfield!

the question nobody seems to have asked is why have we not heard a word from OBL during Gulf War II? normally there seems to be a tape surfacing at every major PR opportunity, lately, nothing. surely this deserves comment from media. the silence is interesting.

Re: Television news

First, take everything with the "live" label with a grain of salt. While they're talking, journalists can't do what they're supposed to do: researching, fact-checking, witnessing places and events.

Covering a war is not the same as doing the play-by-play at the SuperBowl or the World Cup.

As for my sources, I benefit greatly on my fluency in French and English. This fact gives me much more choice.

I rely a lot on newspapers sites (NYT, WaPo for the US, The Independent, The Guardian and The Times for the UK, Libé, Le Monde and Le Figaro for the French), the agonist and Yahoo! news (the French for AFP, AP and the English (UK) for Reuters).

As for television, I watch a BBC half-hour show on CBC Newsworld, CBC's The National, and the France 2, France 3 and RTBF (Belgium) evening newscasts on TV5, the international French-language station on cable and satellite.

On radio, there is the always dependable BBC World Service news radio and Radio France Internationale (RFI). They have a great Middle East news bulletin broadcast daily at 1830 GMT prepared by their Arabic language subsidiary, RMC Moyen-Orient.

Multiple sources: that's the only way to shed a bit of light in these confused times...

PS: Beware folks. I've seen references that run contrary to Godwin's Law in this thread ;-( Let's keep it civil!

Agonist, Cursor, MWO, NYT, Salon, Slate, Kos, Onion, Defensetech, fas, etc.

I agree on the propaganda regarding Ms. Lynch. The "we prayed for her" and "all of West Virginia is behind her" seems a bit too much like the 1940s to me. And the gunshot-stabbing business has already been discredited. (It seems like she was hurt when her vehicle crashed in the ambush. No penetration wounds.) She's a good soldier, and was doing her job well, but the media is working too hard. How long before it's a Movie of the Week with Britney Spears starring as Jessica and Ricky Martin as Muhammed? It's "we need a hero, and here's one!" time.

The controversy surrounding the marketplace bombing that killed 62 in Baghdad last Friday is the 04/04 lead in the Independent - this time with UK Defence secretary Hoon casting aspersions on Robert Fisk's reporting; Fisk's story prompted an emergency statement in the House Commons by anti-war Labour MP's.

The Independent's defence of Fisk is here.

Blogged evidence that the piece of the missile Fisk alleged to be responsible for the marketplace bombing came from a HARM (AGM-88 series) High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile, made by Raytheon, is collected by Tim Blair.

of all the stuff that is overblown on this story this is probably the true part, if you saw she's from a small town and people there really seemed to like her and has been rooting for and they probably were praying for her, some people still do. the stabbing and shooting to the last bullet..???

Starchild... I would just like to respond to your comments on President Bush and his administration. Why so cynical? Why is it not just as likely that George W. is a decent man - not perfect, not flawless - but decent, well intentioned, and genuine? He did not ask for this burden to be thrown into his lap... I think under the circumstances that he has shown extraordinary courage. He has made some minor mistakes... but for the most part his policies are sound when viewed in light of the emergence of a new and very dangerous world. The people who choose to call themselves our enemy do not intend to fight fair - they are sadistic and, I believe, downright sinister. Do you not recall that almost 3,000 American civilians died on 9/11? And does it not strike you as likely that they will attempt and possibly succeed at smuggling a WMD into this country (one easily obtained from a MadMan like Saddam - who happens to hate us as well). Tens of thousands of Americans could die horrible deaths. Saddam was given many options over the years to cooperate with the international community - in fact, he could still halt this war with an unconditional surrender. The Iraqi people DO want help - however, they are rightfully tentative with their support of coalition troops due to the fact that Bush Sr. abandoned them in the 1st Gulf War. Many of them had risen up against Saddam and when the coalition pulled out without removing Saddam - they were tortured and executed. So you must understand that the Iraqis will only truly show their support when they are CERTAIN that Saddam is gone. Afterall, this is a life or death decision for these people. I think overall you might try to look a little deeper into the humanity of all parties involved.

My media vote would be for the still photos. Stills having the most lingering impact and you can really see details. The minus side is that stills can push an agenda. Also high marks to MSNBC for showing footage shot inside "hospitals" and "police stations."

The embeds? Just to tease, I actually used to babysit for the kid of one of them! (Sorry couldn't resist.)

Lastly, thanks to whoever posted the link to the leaflets on centcom.mil. They were fascinating. Why is it that war propaganda like these leaflets, always looks the same, no matter the country? Very dated.

Re: "I think this is why so many conservatives take issue with anti-war movements DURING a war"

Lots of conservatives voiced their opposition to the Clinton administration's intervention in Kosovo.

The agonist is my favorite right now for access to the news spectrum. BBC or MSNBC best of the large News outlets, Fox definitely the worst. In fact Foxnews is an oxymoron.

Syria, next target. They are already laying the groundwork. Iran is a smaller possibility.

Fact: No incumbent president at war has ever been voted out of office. And you better believe the whitehouse knows this.

BTW, that Onion article was almost scary how right on it was.

lanboy....considering that you are a Gulf War 1 veteran I will have to say that you are not being objective about the war protestors. As michele stated...if not for the dissentors we might still be fighting in Viet Nam. If you were GW1 then I am assuming you are not old enough to remember that war. I was very young and I remember it quite well. It was horrific. I know a lot of the pro war people think that everyone that is antiwar are as they call peacenik/pacifist. That is simply not true. I agreed with GW1 as did a much wider portion of the American population. It was in my opinion however a worthy cause (although once again we were not given all the facts prior). I did not agree with its outcome. It led to exactly where we are today didn't it? It was a different kind of war though wasn't it? I am not saying here that freeing the Iraqi's is not a altruist endeavor. We will see how really altruist this administration is in the future when we determine how many more worthy causes are undertaken.

That being said, my question about the current situation is where are all the people (not just the troops)? I saw documentary recently about Baghdad and there were people bustling in the streets like NY or LA. Sure I don't expect the people to be out as per usual. But shouldn't they be streaming out of it somewhere? It's creepy and eerie like a ghost town. The citizens not leaving cannot be a good thing

FWIW, I forgot to mention that the news as a whole is very disappointing to me. Flash, fluff, jingoistic, plastic, hollywood and bandwagonish. It's hard to find anything that foresighted or in depth. The worst trend right now is the cult of personality the stations are pushing.

I AM AMAZED.

This is ostensibly a sophisticated group here and yet no-one, NOBODY, has remarked on the 4th post in this thread purporting to tell the story of Jessica within an overall discussion of media.

Within that post I quote: "Under the watchful eyes of more than 40 murderous gunmen, the 19-year-old supply clerk laid in Saddam Hussein Hospital suffering from at least one gunshot wound and several broken bones."

By contrast, this is what her family says: "Gregory Lynch said that he and his wife had spoken to her at the hospital in Landstuhl, Germany, and that - contrary to media reports - she had "no multiple gunshot wounds or knife stabs."

These reports of Lynch suffering multiple gunshot wounds are baldface propaganda lies. This war is simply overflowing with such propaganda. Lies such as got us into this war (the Niger forgery, e.g.), which given our history is not that unusual (TonkinGulf, e.g.), and the Bush administration, some members of the media, and not merely a few members of the general populace think it's ok if we lie our way through it.

I feel sorry for the kid, Lynch. She had no easy way to find a job in W. Va. where she grew up so she followed her siblings into the military being offered no alternative. Middle class and upper class kids don't face this dilemma, this Sophie's choice between risking your life and making a living, but she did and she paid the price. And now the Faux network and their ilk are making money off the results of her dilemma with false stories about her treatment at the hands of the supposed Iraqi monsters. They could care less about her or the monsters; it's all about audience ratings. And so they hype her injuries and her hardships and build her into this week's 15 minute hero.

If you really want to understand the depths into which America is now sinking check this out . I can recall stories about flying the flag upside down as a protest for years. Gun advocates, they call themselves 2nd amendment supporters, have done this without much trouble. There is a protocol for flying the flag upside down: it signals distress. But in today's climate of hyper-patriotism it is obviously cause for attempted murder. The anger of the patriots has been unleashed (I think this is a proxy for class warfare like the hardhat attacks against student demonstrators during the Viet Nam war). It is illuminating though to see the depth of the anger that lies barely beneath the surface of our placid, happy society. People are ready to kill over disagreements about whether or not we should be dropping bombs on other countries. We are seeing the symptoms of a sick society bubbling to the surface now in America. What is the real cause of this anger? It can't be the upside down piece of cloth in and of itself. It is what America means to various Americans, as SYMBOLIZED by that piece of cloth. And I would submit that turning a piece of cloth upside down is not the same as attacking others with baseball bats or whatever these thug's weapons were.

So we stumble into an uncertain future because of a handful of arrogant, ignorant men (and one woman) surrounding this undereducated, psychologically warped president. A mommy's boy who was so challenged by his daddy's success that he bacame enthralled to the devil alcohol and who now has eschewed this devil by bowing before a god he imagines has chosen him to lead us through these difficult times. Life is definitely stranger than fiction; it would be hard to imagine a more pathetic character than our president at this hour, captive to vaulting egos, without a clue as to how the world works beyond our shores.

So, on topic, do not expect American media to be any more trustworthy than al jazeera during times like these. Check out a variety of sources and do not buy any take completely. Be skeptical of everything any military source delivers and think about the money behind the various news entities. BBC is generally good, their reporters properly skeptical by training. AFP and Le Monde are good. In the US we're down to the NY Times and the Washington Post, both supporters of the war to begin with but increasingly questioning the results thus far. The Guardian is good. There are lots of others I check daily but they all run some dogma. It's difficult at times like these because they demand that we all make a choice. overall though I think the overall level of discourse is notches below what it was during the Viet Nam war. This is regrettable and, IMO, indicative of an overall diminution of democratic norms.

I don't know why the "upside down flag" link did not appear in the last post. Here it is (http://truthout.org/docs_03/040403A.shtml).

Whoever said this is not a war is correct. It is a disgraceful imperialist adventure. Bush is not a legitimate president, and is certainly not a decent man, not even a man, but an empty shell -- a smirking pathetic serial criminal surrounded by a-moral thugs.

I think your account of why Lynch joined the Army is incorrect. According to today's NY Times, which interviewed her family, several high school friends, and a high school teacher, Lynch plans to become a teacher and joined the Army for what she knew was a short stint to get help with her college tuition and see a bit of the world.

Or perhaps she simply didn't want her parants to freak out by telling them she had been shot several times, and stabbed.

I agree that BBC has probably provided the best coverage. What I've seen on CBC was pretty reasonable as well...a very lucid commentary on the impact pre-emtive military action could have on our world was presented by Rex Murphy.

I've also found Gen. Wesley Clark interesting. At times he's spoken with candor about the impact of war planning and execution on military careers...not what you hear from all of the rah-rah guys.

pt:

Appearantly the Iraqi informer who told the Marines where she was thought she had been shot too.

"Her head was bandaged, her right arm was in a sling over a white blanket and she had what Mohammed thought was a gunshot wound to a leg."

Perhaps that is where the report originated?

Also from the story:

"Believe me, not only I, all the people of Iraq, not the people in the government, like Americans," Mohammed said. "They want to help the Americans, but they are all afraid."

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/5552797.htm

"So we stumble into an uncertain future because of a handful of arrogant, ignorant men (and one woman) surrounding this undereducated, psychologically warped president. A mommy's boy who was so challenged by his daddy's success that he bacame enthralled to the devil alcohol and who now has eschewed this devil by bowing before a god he imagines has chosen him to lead us through these difficult times. Life is definitely stranger than fiction; it would be hard to imagine a more pathetic character than our president at this hour, captive to vaulting egos, without a clue as to how the world works beyond our shores."

This is worth reading????

Unlike countries in which dictators control everything. The President and the administration are held accountable. They cannot just come out and lie.

There is a fog of war, and the reporting gets very confused. Many times the first reports are never right. I read the seals rescued her, the rangers, and then Delta.... not all of that could be true.

I think this is possibly the reason for the conflicting accounts. That or as someone pointed out, the family is confused.

I am sure medical reports will clear this up.

Why would the US Gov't purposely lie about something easily verifiable?

Come on guys... do you see the blackhawks flying around your house?? They may be looking for you!!

"Why is it not just as likely that George W. is a decent man - not perfect, not flawless - but decent, well intentioned, and genuine? He did not ask for this burden to be thrown into his lap..."

uh, yeah he did. he's the one who (a) first sued to stop the florida recount (funny how those repugs love trial lawyers when they need them) to the job in the first place, and then (b) invaded iraq without provocation.

as to the media, mark fiore is a fav of mine and has been for a year or so (you can also get his stuff at the sf chronicle on line, www.sfgate.com).

we are lucky here in los angeles, cspan plays the bbc breakfast show (morning news & chat, but real news, no matt lauer crap) just as i am settling in for bed, about 11:00 pm.

i have found that against my better judgement i wind up listening to msnbc more than cnn or fox.

but it's the agonist on top for me! (daily kos is a close second www.dailykos.com)

Re. PFC Lynch and the discrepancies in reporting her injuries.
Hate to say it but what crossed my mind is overzealous PC reporting. What if the press exaggerated her injuries to prove that she was a tough as her male counterparts, which adds to the GI Jane drama? Argument: women have no place in combat. Counterargument: look at PFC Lynch. She fought like hell, took a bullet, went through all her ammo, and survived as a POW long enough to be rescued.

Actually I am somewhat heartened that this hasn't been brought up before. Maybe there's been progress on one front?

Re: Star and stripes upside down

I don't know if you've seen this footage, but I've noticed that Colin Powell's flag pin was upside down for a brief moment when he entered the meeting at NATO in Brussels, Thursday. In a scene caught by RTBF (Belgian Public Television), Powell notices that his flag is crooked and turns his flag aroung with his left hand.

Should we read anything into this? Powell in distress?

I also forgot a little thing called propaganda, the media is rife with it.

PT, we're probably just so jaded we don't even pay attention to the inconsistencies in the reporting anymore.

first i'm not going to take you completely on but just a few comments:

"I feel sorry for the kid, Lynch. She had no easy way to find a job in W. Va. where she grew up so she followed her siblings into the military being offered no alternative. Middle class and upper class kids don't face this dilemma, this Sophie's choice between risking your life and making a living, but she did and she paid the price."

Don't give her your pity. People of all classes have choices. She chose it. People chose to go for various reasons but your "analysis" is really nothing more than propaganda in itself.

And Vietnam. Look I'm no scholar and I've only thought about it and have don't just a little reading but in the long run I think you'll see that the Vietnam War will be reevaluated and that we'll see that the viewpoint that it was a bad war will change. There were mistakes but that war was fighting for a few things that were honorable also. The cold war was a war. HOChiMin was a Stalinist dictator who even had his own Maoist purges. The people in South Vietnam (and North) were terrorized into following him and many fled the North and then fled the South to American I wonder why?

"n the US we're down to the NY Times...supporters of the war to begin with but increasingly questioning the results thus far.'

I'd love someone to take you to task on this because I just don't believe this. Of course you like the Guardian, the same reason Freepers like Fox. Don't be so hypocritical as to why you like which service.
"he Guardian is good"

Sparks:
"Why is it not just as likely that George W. is a decent man - not perfect, not flawless - but decent, well intentioned, and genuine? "

Because he is... NOT decent, well intentioned, and genuine? His administration has been a vile source for international antagonism. The economy is broken - high unemployment and unchecked corporate corruption. The environment is now left to "voluntary compliance" by industry. A tax cut benefiting the top 1% of the income earners at the expense of nearly everyone else.

His policies are decidedly anti-social, anti-working class, and anti-American. The man is being guided by idealogues bent on remaking the world to their ex-CEO power mad ways.

Sorry - the truth is that Bush is a very poor President, completely ignorant of international concerns, and completely out-of-touch with everyday American life.

PS: Don't blame me - I voted with the majority.

Mike wrote:

>Why would the US Gov't purposely lie about something easily verifiable?

Yeah, sheesh, what else would the US Govt lie about that can be easily
verifiable to be not true? That Saddam Hussein took part in 9/11?
That Niger tried to help Iraq in getting uranium? They would never lie
about things like that.

"Why would the US Gov't purposely lie about something easily verifiable?"

They don't need to, the media does it for them.

Carrot and stick. Access and legislative bribery relating to either parent companies or subsidiaries.

America is not a free country. It is bought and sold on a daily basis.

I'm with pt. Gather your info from as many sources as possible and then read between the lines. While pt's assessment of Lynch's circumstance was not spot on, Lynch's joining the army was still motivated by a lack of funds - and as for the "freak out" comment from Kyrandos... Could we have some more speculation here please? There's obviously not enough going around already. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

I have to agree with pt as well.

I think there is a saying that has stuck in my head since the war began.

"The wealthy have never sacrificed at the altar of patriotism"

sj: "lanboy....considering that you are a Gulf War 1 veteran I will have to say that you are not being objective about the war protestors"

So.. because i hold a contrary opinion to yours, I must not be objective? My. I thought I stated my OPINION. What you state is also not more, nothing less. It's your OPINION. I have my views, you yours. That doesn't make me lacking in objectivity or open mindedness. I know you might find that hard to believe, what with my views not matching those of yours.

lb

He's not the only one noticing the discrepancies in Lynch's news. I noticed that but I do give people the benefit of the doubt because I AM NOT AT LYNCH's BEDSIDE at anytime soon. Vocal opinionated attack & belief has no place in debate and is not worth reading. Your credibility is limit so don't waste it needlessly.

"I've also found Gen. Wesley Clark interesting. At times he's spoken with candor about the impact of war planning and execution on military careers...not what you hear from all of the rah-rah guys."

I have also enjoyed watching Wesley. His perspective is enlightening and he seems like an honest guy. His gaze is unwavering.

Didn't find PT's comments informative at all. Could have heard the same thing from the French. Just seems to be warmed up bitterness from FL elections and "Nam"itus.

You guys are something else. Painting with broad strokes. There is no doubt that the military is a career choice for the lower/middle class in order for them to get education/experience/money for college.

However there are a lot of upper middle class people who join the military. I have many personal friends who are in the military and could have went straight to college on scholarships.

The officer corp is professional, and many times upper middle class. Unlike in past wars, almost all commanders are leading from the front.

""The wealthy have never sacrificed at the altar of patriotism""

This is an outragous statement, and false. The Founding Fathers of this nation risked their lives, and their fortunes in the war of Independence. Brave Americans from all classes have fought bravely from the Revolutionary war, Civil War, WWII through this conflict now.

I guess you guys will start refering to the Illuminati, Skull & Bones, and other orginizations that control everything.

Ssssshhhhh. They are coming to get us!!!

My post was about objectivity relative to perspective lanboy. Lives were lost in GW1 yes...but Viet Nam cost thousands and thousands on both sides. The protestors during that time brought attention to that fact and eventually lead to its end. The protestors brought about real change. Do you honestly think they should have just shut up as you are basically stating in your post? It is a shame that some soldiers feel that protestors are against them directly. This cannot be farther from the truth. The protestors want to save them from what they feel is a wrongheaded government policy. It is the government that encourages the population to believe that war protestors do not support the troops.

pt, I'm with you on this one.
It's time those of us who believe in reason and logic took back this country from the nationalists. If anyone doubts this administration's treachery, read Jonathan Freedman's article in the Gaurdian : http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,,927995,00.html

This administration has no clue what principles this country was founded on and has used lies and deception to try and have us look the other way while they run roughshod.

If the neo-con's have their way we'll be living in a threocratic Brazilian empire. The patterns are all there. No respect for the seperation of church and state. Economic policies that decimate the middle class, who are the cornerstone of healthy democracy and capitalism. An obsession with America as a dominate world power. We haven't done anything this insane since the Spanish-American war, which was followed by a popular interest in facism in this country. Didn't we learn anything from our past? Just because we can, does not mean we should.

The UN is not irrelevent, it's the best way to increase peace and democracy in the world. Unilateralism is worse than isolationism.

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, I'm an unapologetic capitalist that understands the bigger picture. It's written in our past. Democracy is inefficient and expensive, facism isn't. If we keep going down this road, this country is in serious danger. I personally would have loved in the past 12 years to see Saddam strung up like Tito or Mousilini, but you can only fight evil with justice. Being good isn't easy and won't get the results you'd like as quickly, but it's the only way that I can live with myself as an American.

BTW, isn't anyone even slightly appalled by the amount of serious discussion there is about the US legalizing torture? That anyone who suggest's this as a reasonable idea actually gets taken seriously? Where did America go? I want it back.

These comparisons between Vietnam and GWII are incorrect. There are two kinds of wars. Those with a clear winner (American Civil War, WWI, WWII, and Panama).
And those without a clear winner (Israel, Vietnam, Korea and some might say GWI). As we can see, for peace to exist, there must be a clear winner and loser. In Vietnam, we never went for a clear winner. In Iraq, there will be a clear winner.

Some would say war never brings peace. It does with a clear winner.

"The wealthy have never sacrificed at the altar of patriotism"

oh yeah?

"we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

READ ON, CANUCKS!

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by