Welcome back SP!!

Re: Missiles in Najaf.

The correspondent, Chilcote, seemed pretty freaked out. He was breathless and not too coherent. He might just be a victim of on-the-spot journalism. We'll see what the heck happened. He also didn't assume they were Iraqi missiles, either.

If Monsanto can patent a gene in my body, why don't you just copywrite all the info about the war and be done with the challanges?

He said SCUDs surface-to-surface near Najaf, but no chemicals. Seems pretty calm now, a little white-lipped maybe.

Well, if this is the big push to destroy the RG units, I wonder if this is the time Saddam decides to go chemical or not. When the RG units get ground into hamburger there is nothing to prevent coalition forces from surrounding Bagdad and playing heavy metal music until Saddam&Co surrenders (remember how US forces smoked Noriega out of his hiding place ?).

Mad Dog

Rumsfeld denies negotiations underway to end war

Lots and lots of fantastic maps here:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/iraq.html

Same link, opens new window

Rumsfeld denies negotiations underway to end war

Battle of Baghdad has started - Al Jaz and Cnn

I think the entire armed forces, regular and irregular of Iraq are more or less useless, militarily speaking.

In two weeks of armed combat, the Coalition has suffered well under 50 fatalities by enemy fire.

The whole war is the one of the greatest mismatches of armed forces in human history.

i read in the french press that the u.s. state department was evacuated due to a SARS scare?

can't find it anywhere in the english press, as usual

in french - www.cyberpresse.ca

salut, mon cherie, tu es de retour?

As reported in Iraqwar.ru yesterday morning, the big push is slated for the 2nd of April...

that site is gaining credibility by the day.

Stunny, actually, coalition casualties REPORTED are now over 75.

Other sites claim that there are more than 150 casualities, 500 wounded, and tens missing.

And those "useless" forces are still holding out in Basra, Fao, Nassiriya, Najaf, and elsewhere.

You may support this war (as is apparent from your tone), but do not blind yourself to its reality.

The more unrealistic you are now, the more unhappy you could be later.

Hope for the best, brace for the worst, and expect something in the middle.

Some juicy but highly questionable tidbits from The Guardian. Definitely need more sources on these. Main points:

-Baghdad market explosion indeed caused by Patriot missile.

-Quarrels between US and internationals over insepction teams and post-Iraq govt.
The URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,927233,00.html

Some background on the fight brewing between Powell and Rumsfeld regarding the postwar cleanup:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/01/international/worldspecial/01AID.html

A friend on the inside of USAID--on this project--confirms the content of the report, and is astounded at how quickly and accurately the reporter picked up what she did. Not that it's highly sensitive, but still...

"there is nothing to prevent coalition forces from surrounding Bagdad and playing heavy metal music until Saddam&Co surrenders (remember how US forces smoked Noriega out of his hiding place ?)."

Mad Dog:

You're enthusiasm is infectious.

I'm not an audiophile, but how big would those "Baghdad Surround" speakers have to be to smoke Saddam out? Are we talking 200 foot tweeters and 50 foot woofers? And what if we play non-stop Madonna? Has the army actually developed such weapons of mass seduction?

Bsttle of Baghdad sounds like a heavy metal song... Metallica, maybe?

Is there anything out there telling us who is where? (our guys) Any reports of our guys in places they aren't supposed to be? Particularly the 32nd AMD

Speaking of iraqi regular army (aka "Saddams cannon fodder"), I cant find any mention of any of these units other than the 51st and 11th mech divisions. I wonder if:

1) They "went home"
2) Sadddam considers them so unreliable that he parked them nowhere important
3) They traded thier T-55s in for tractors at the local Ford dealership

I wonder....

Mad Dog

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/iraqwar_ru_018.htm

April 1 iraqwar.ru update via aeronautics.

http://radio.xmlstoragesystem.com/rcsPublic/mailto?usernum=0120495

tell em what you think

All this psyops being played out in the media is a little discouraging. To sit and listen to Rummy's chats with the media concerning the psyops being played out in Iraq, and to not consider that he spins the US press as well is just, well... silly.

The newsday starts out with a little seeding of the rumour mill. No better way to set the tone, aka "begging the question" to get the message on track.

And when there's no real action... the message is fluff. Speculation about Saddam: dead or alive, negotiations underway, etc. etc. This is smoke and mirrors used to deflect from the fact that an operation in progress can't be compromised.

Dan:

Coalition casualties include quite a lot from accidents and friendly fire. If you read my post, you'd see it spoke of deaths due to enemy fire.

I stand by the claim that it is less than 50 two weeks into the war.

http://radio.xmlstoragesystem.com/rcsPublic/mailto?usernum=0120495

tell em what you think

Hmmm.... got me to thinking what would be the best Heavy Metal song to play to Saddam? Stairway to Heaven?

The Onion provides its usual thoughtful commentary:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/bush_thought_war.html

Start Quote:

Mad Dog, You're enthusiasm is infectious.

I'm not an audiophile, but how big would those "Baghdad Surround" speakers have to be to smoke Saddam out? Are we talking 200 foot tweeters and 50 foot woofers? And what if we play non-stop Madonna? Has the army actually developed such weapons of mass seduction?

Posted by edub at April 1, 2003 10:16 PM
End Quote:

Easy as pie. We just airlift in the Mother Of All Woofers (tm). We then turn the volume up to "11" (Spinal Tap reference).

Playing Madonna all day is a Violation of International Law. Instead I propose playing such tasty bits as:

Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap (AC/DC)
Blitzkreig (Metallica)
Hot in the City (Billy Idol)

and so forth.

Mad Dog

MadDog.

Well, those are certainly possibilities.

I would suggest another, based on the supposed "mass surrender" of the 51st on the second day of the war. Now that we are STILL fighting the 51st in Basra....after nearly two weeks...I would suggest that perhaps those "missing units" are hiding somewhere, waiting for the latest US/UK offensive to wane (as it must, as long as the resistance remains as stiff as it is to date), at which point they will appear somewhere unexpected and attack a supply base, or a supply line.

Untoward optimism does noone any good, regardless of the opinions about the war.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/special_packages/iraq/5529500.htm

Iran is apparently next

I say we get Canada involved and blast SH with Celine Dione...that would do it for me.

Start Quote:
MadDog.

Well, those are certainly possibilities.

I would suggest another, based on the supposed "mass surrender" of the 51st on the second day of the war. Now that we are STILL fighting the 51st in Basra....after nearly two weeks...I would suggest that perhaps those "missing units" are hiding somewhere, waiting for the latest US/UK offensive to wane (as it must, as long as the resistance remains as stiff as it is to date), at which point they will appear somewhere unexpected and attack a supply base, or a supply line.

Untoward optimism does noone any good, regardless of the opinions about the war.
Posted by Dan at April 1, 2003 10:26 PM
End Quote:

Dan, I cannot dismiss that possibility. However, I can point out it is rather hard to hide 15 or so divisions of troops each with a large amount of vehicles. For whatever reason, I think the lack of identification of the mass of the iraqi regular army is interesting. To what end, I know not.

Mad Dog

Did any of ya'll just see the "Condition Red" biohazard suit ad on CNN just now? 19.99 - four easy payments. I thought it was some sort of dark joke at first. What incredible opportunists!

Mad Dog:

I'd play:

"London Calling" (Clash)

"Born in the U.S.A." (Springsteen)

"Alternative Ulster" (Stiff Little Fingers)

non-stop, loud and proud.

Not for nothing, but I find a lot of the .ru stuff to be TASS redux. If the Russians were as adept at communications intercepts and long range surveillance as those sites like to make themselve out to be they'd still be the Soviet Union and we'd still be in the Cold War.

Info on missile which hit Iraqi market-place made by Raytheon, see:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=393066

Try Highway to Hell by AC/DC....it appears to me as if Saddam has travelled down this road already. Lets hope.

Start Quote:
Mad Dog:

I'd play:

"London Calling" (Clash)

"Born in the U.S.A." (Springsteen)

"Alternative Ulster" (Stiff Little Fingers)

non-stop, loud and proud.
Posted by edub at April 1, 2003 10:38 PM
End Quote:

Edub, Excellent Choices ! Now, if I could only remember the name of the song that goes:

"I fought the law, and the law won".....

Mad Dog

War (Springsteen)

non-stop, loud and proud.

Yanni. Or John Tesh. Or, God have mercy, both! That would be the equivalent of a Neutron bomb. All the infrastucture would remain intact while the city would be devoid of life. =-/

Warlord on the Watchtower (Hendrix)

non-stop, loud and proud.

A couple days ago I posted a link to the leaflets being dropped in Iraq. This is a better link.

http://www.centcom.mil/galleries/leaflets/showleaflets.asp

I thought I posted this yesterday, but can't find it. (Cable problems right after posting it meant I couldn't check, then I went to bed.) Apologies if I've posted it twice.

"I say we get Canada involved and blast SH with Celine Dione...that would do it for me."
{humor}
I think that'd be a violation of the Geneva Convention and bascially anything that's good and holy.
{/humor}

What are we fighting for?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn.
Next step is Vietnam.

And it's 5 - 6 - 7

Open up the pearly gates.
Well, there ain't no need to wonder why - Woopi! were all gonna die.

(Country Joe and the Fish)

Jaysus, people, cantcha take your running commentary over to the BBS? This commentary thread is supposed to be informational and newsy, not asinine.

Show some respect for SP. He's requested several times over that the commentary page not be abused.

FNC reporting final Baghdad push is on.

All this loose talk of blasting Saddam with heavy metal or Madonna is irrelevant. If Saddam is still alive in his 300 meter underground German built bunker, only Wagner's Gotterdammerung will shake him loose

the story linked the agonist at 10.14

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=393094

also includes a report on baghdad that 'Far from being besieged, its main roads north and south are open – a few trains are still leaving for northern cities – and although US troops were reported to have set up a checkpoint on the road west to Amman, they appear to have been a "flying column", stopping trucks and cars for a few hours and then vanishing into the desert at night.'

the trains are still running? like, 'day return to mosul please'? this siege has a long way to go.

Fresh Aire with Terry Grose: interviews with a critic and a proponent (William Kristol) of neo-conservative ideology, i.e. the Bush doctrine. Very good.

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?todayDate=04/01/2003

mad dog -d on't remember who did 'i fought the law' first, but the clash covered it. i think their track 'rock the casbah' is more to the point...but it's apparently been banned by MTV, along with any other track that might be related to the war.

oops, should've linked that claim

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,921475,00.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/01/1048962762234.html

Is this just as it seems, or is this a "prep job", preparing the groundwork for the release of information about ongoing carnage...that has been so far shielded from the press.

Yeah, I know it sounds conspiratorial and paranoid, but just because I am paranoid...doesn't mean they're not all out to get me, see?

and http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,922492,00.html

Now, if I could only remember the name of the song that goes:

"I fought the law, and the law won".....

It's called "I Fought The Law."

C'm on people:

Bombs Over Baghdad - Outkast

"I Fought the Law" penned by the West Texas rock n roller Bobby Fuller.. an interesting story in it's own right..

http://del-fi.com/feature/bfdeath.html

Sorry jc but at least its a civil commentary and it is providing us all (both sides) with a little levity for a change. relax...loosen up...there doesn't seem to be a lot of news going on at th moment.

How bout "Rock and Roll All Night" by KISS?

Any news on reported downed F-14??

It's on the CNN.com main page, but I can't find anything more substantial...

It is funny when you think about it, the one thing we can all agree on is that we all (both sides) would like to toture Saddam with some of our best(worst?)music.

Regardless of what anyone thinks niether side supports Saddam this just proved it.

Market Missile:

Just because the missile came from Raytheon doesn't mean it wasn't an Iraqi missile. Their money is (or was) as green as anyone elses, and we (US companies) took plenty of it for quite a few years, up to and including WMD supplies and assistance.

Here is a link to an reuters article on Jessica Lynch

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20030402/ts_nm/iraq_usa_rescue_dc

Keep up the great work. Thanks for the last link on the explosion in Baghdad market.

"TV Party" by Black Flag might be sutiable to blast over those loud speakers.

The Macarena, however, would be highly effective.

And seeing all those references to "I fought the law" by The Clash reminds me of "I fought the law (and I won)" by the Dead Kennedeys, but that might be more appopriate for the American administration.

More on SARS...that's science not news...yet
http://nejm.org/earlyrelease/sars.asp

m4m,

the serial number indicates a HARM missile is the most likely candidate.

I believe - not sure, though - that HARM missiles are strictly verboten for sale to Iraq.

I also believe that the HARM missiles are strictly regulated in terms of who they do get to that could possibly get away with selling them to iraq.

If they were iraqi HARMs, then someone is gonna get in deep doo-doo...including Raytheon.

Its hard anymore to get excited about a so-called war that is not much more than a gangland mugging of a cripple. Operation Torch was a battle this is a cake walk in comparison no matter what anybody says.

Our so-called winning the hearts and minds campaign is nothing but replacing the Republican Guard boot on the neck of Iraqis with a American one. Treat all Iraqis like crap seems to be the GI motto if they are shooting them. Even the British are astonished at our barbarity as written in:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-631779,00.html

The attack on Baghdad promises to be a grand slaughter of civilians, I'm sure Centcom will say they died for a good cause. Many medals will awarded and many will be declared heroes.

And soon we will repeat this with Syria and Iran. After all killing strange looking foreigners who don't speak enligish seems to be our new past time. We needed one after Baseball and Survivor fizziled out. Besides our troops need some fun too.

I don't think that Independent article comes from a credible source. Robert Fisk might be a "correspondent" to some people, but to many, many others he's an hysterical exaggerator with a regular habit of bending the truth and spinning with the best of them. He is not an impartial observer. There isn't much doubt now that a U.S. missile struck the market (though there have been reports that it was an Iraqi missile).

And the reporter editorializes in the story. Don't you need to attribute something like this:

"The identification of the missile as American is an embarrassing blow to Washington and London as they try to match their promises of minimal civilian casualties with the reality of precision bombing."

Assuming that the report that fragments of a US missile being found at the market are true that does not really prove that the US caused the deaths.

All it proves is that missile fragments were in the market.

Considering the tons of munitions being dropped on Iraq right not it would be very very easy for the Iraqi propoganda machine to simply plant the fragments.

Even if it was a US missle, I wouldn't put it past Saddam and the regime to place a radar transmitter in the marketplace >knowing< that a US anti-radar missle would hit the marketplace and generate civilian casualties. This type of missle would be fired once the radar was detected; It also proceeds to the last known location of the radar signal if the radar device is turned off, which would explain why there might not be any wreckage in the area.

As for it being a US missle, the mere presence of a US missle fragment is certainly no conclusive proof - there must be thousands of HARM fragments around Iraq at this point.

Why not just stick with the party line, rather than bend over backwards trying to "prove" that it had to have been an Iraqi missile.

Weaseling just makes you look worse, and the pentagon spin is the best you will be able to do.

I meant to say up in my earlier comment that there is a doubt that it was an American missile that hit the market. Sorry for the confusion.

But weren't there reports that the damage in the market was more of the type of thing you'd see from anti-aircraft fire that returned back to the ground than an american missile?

And Siniac is right -- this could easily be staged. Saddam has done it so many times it wouldn't be surprising.

And my original point stands -- the Independent, and especially Robert Fisk, love to pin civilian deaths on the U.S. I'm surprised they didn't blame the shelling of civilians in Basra on the coalition. Definitely not impartial.

"Ace of Spades" by Motorhead

"Antichrist" by the Sex Pistols

"Master of Puppets" by Metallica

"Lets Have a War" by Fear

"Fascist Pig" by Suicidal Tendencies

"Paranoid" by Black Sabbath

"Chemical Warfare" by the Dead Kennedys

"Run to the Hills" by Iron Maiden

Oh, come now. Let's apply some Occam's Razor logic to this, peeps: either (A) a HARM missle went astray or (B) the Iraqi propaganda machine took time out from the war to plant twenty thousand titanium fragments, a serial number, and cut holes in a few dozen bodies, all to feign the appearance of a missile that went astray.

Gee, I wonder which scenario is more plausible?

Just posted tomorrow's NYTimes op/ed, both "pros from Dover" on the topics:

Thomas L. Friedman's analysis of the Arab reactions to the War in Iraq:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/opinion/02FRIE.html

Maureed Dowd's inside-the-beltway
take on the political war
and who the players are:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/opinion/02DOWD.html

Edub: You're half right, but actually's 50 foot tweeters and 200 foot woofers. It's the low frequencies that need the larger speakers.

I nominate "VX Gas Attack" by Skinny Puppy. It was written in Saddam's honor, and if you're not a big fan of industrial music, it's only slightly less painful than the real thing.

On second thought, I should have put "honor" in quotes.

"If I killed all the reporters today, there would be news from hell tonight" reportedly uttered by Gen. U.S. Grant during the civil war. Just goes to show that history does repeat itself.

Gah!

You are right that is certainly could have been a HARM gone astray but I still think it is a set up.

They would not be taking time out, that is thier job, they are the "propoganda machine"
What evidence do we have of the titanium fragments other than the Iraqis say so. And finally we must all admit by now that they have absolutly no problem putting holes in thier own people just to make a point. (minor points like dont wave a the US troops.)

I was just flipping past CNBC and I caught their news crawl saying, "Dozens of Iraqi generals reported captured, being grilled about..."

I watched until it came around again, to be sure I hadn't misread it. Nope. "Dozens of Iraqi generals reported captured..."

*sigh* I know truth is the first casualty of war, but do they have to spit on the corpse?

The Navy has confirmed that a Prowler was in the area, fired a HARM, and didn't see where it landed. Fragments of a Raytheon-built missile were found with serial numbers indicating it was Navy armament were found at the scene.

That evidence would convict you in a court of law in the US.

I guess, given the nature of this war, and the paucity of reliable information, it's ok to harbor some suspicious paranoia. It's about this Jessica Lynch thing. Thank god she's safe. But, I mean, I'm a bit puzzled about why they'd round up Press Corp for a highly unusual 3:00 am to await a 2.5 minute Centcom briefing which didn't actually take place 'til 3:30. Did they originally have another reason for this Briefing? Incidentally, anybody know why J Lynch was never included in the original list of POW/MIAs?

Oh, come on, Siniac! It could have been planted by aliens from the planet Gzrwwkrk!, but you're probably pretty confident it wasn't.

There are two explanations for it. One is very simple and accounts for all details. The other is complex, and requires the Iraqis to plant evidence at superhuman speed, not to mention somehow rip citizens to shreds using technology previously unseen in Iraq.

Why on earth do you insist on choosing the complex and unlikely explanation? Is your worldview so reliant on US inculpability that it can't bear the idea of a waygone HARM missile?!

Opps. Now I'm guilty of disrespecting SP's rules for the commentary thread. I'll shut up now; debating HARM vs Planted Evidence leads nowhere useful.

It's OK, gah, at least your commentary and opinion was on an actual news story. I have been watching multiple video streams from Baghdad 24/7 for the last 12 days.

In many of the shots you could see both gunfire and rocket fire from Iraqi positions in the city into the sky towards coalition planes. What goes up does come down, and I personally saw at least 3 video streams that showed missles head up, then arc, then come back down in Baghdad. I wish there was an archive of all this streamed video captured, so that I could show you.

That does not mean that what I saw during day or night was what happened in the market, but it does at least make that argument plausible. The news media is tightly controlled in Baghdad, and was not on the scene before the Iraqi military had a chance to be there and plant anything they wanted. That part was not even claimed to be found right away.

I don't know whether it was a coalition missle or an Iraqi one, but I think there are good reasons to respect people's opinions one way or another.

Regarding the HARM missle.

I don't believe anyone thinks the US fired on the Market on purpose. So evidence planted or not, the civilians know the coalition is coming to Baghdad.

I'd like to see someone come up with some numbers like civilians killed by Saddam and civilians killed by the coalition.

We can't change the past, but we can change the future.

As we haven't used nukes yet, I think America is doing quite well in trying to protect civilians.
Remember Japan in 1945?

The coalition forces are trading the lives of their soldiers to protect as many civilians as possible.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :)

1. Barney I love you, you love me...
It's a Small World, After All....

2. Money quote in article:

Despite its manufacturer's claims, it also has a record of unreliability when fired at a target which "disappears" if, as the Iraqi forces do, the target's operators switch their radar signal rapidly on and off. Nick Cook, of Jane's Defence Weekly, said: "The problem with Harms is that they can be seduced away from their targets by any sort of curious transmission. They are meant to have corrected that but there have been problems."

3. As we all know, in the blogosphere "To Fisk" is a verb.

4. Although Baghdad is not on yet, according to the ever-reliable UN, hundreds of thousands of civilians were going to be killed. While I am all for killing all Ba'ath party officials (and the Iraqis will be taking care of the ones we missed) I think it's safe to say we are nowhere near hundreds of thousands yet. The lights are on, buses are running and so is the water and sewer, right?

Regarding the missile, check out:
http://www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil/bincs/begin_search.asp, a inventory look up for defense contractors products. Put the prefix of the number found on the missile, 96214, in the cage field. Aside from the results saying it's from Raytheon, I can't figure them out.

I figure the damn thing just malfunctioned or missed whatever it was supposed to blow up. Our precision munitions are supposed to be 90% accurate; it could just be part of that ugly and unfortunate 10%. On the other hand, nobody's said anything about the defect rate of precision munitions...