It occurs to me that this is not the first time we have heard that the Iraqis are fighting from within mosques. I suspect that this is going to continue. I also suspect that at least a couple of mosques are going to be destroyed because of it.

If/when it does happen; we need to recall that the attack on Montecasino during WWII in Northern Africa involved the total destruction of a rather famous monastery. If it happens, it will not be a precedent.

This is war - why shouldn't they fight from mosques?

Sometimes a Mosque is nothing more than a home designated as such, a knights of columbus hall kinda place if you will. It doesn't have to be (by my understanding) a domed structure w/4 minarets.

This will be a precedent, but not the kind I think Eric means.

In WW2, the Germans did not occupy the monastery until after it had been bombed, but the Allies didn't believe they would possibly stay out of it.

Because if they had any respect for human life they'd know that a mosque/church/temple is a sanctuary for innocents (not to mention a house of God).

Sean-Paul,

Nice find on the FOX News lawsuit. I suspect two things:

1. This is going to be addressed by the US Supreme Court. It is long overdue.

2. If it stands, how can anything reported by the media be used in court? Everything must be treated with as much or more suspicion as bloggers treat media sources

Fox News is pure fucking evil.

what a surprise. Faux news lies!??

OH MY GOD!! I SEE THE LIGHT!

Actually Montecasino is in Italy, not Northern Africa.

But yes, some mosques will probably be destroyed. I don't think it will become a huge issue, though.

I am sure the pentagon must be extremely concerned about the possible consequences of the SARS virus finding its way to the troops in raq or even the general population. As the virus seems to spread very rapidly to people within close contact of an infected person, the living conditions of the military on ships or on the ground would seem highly favorable to rapid spread of the disease. Many cases have now been reported in Canada and Australia, both of which have ships in the Persian Gulf.

The continuous flow of military personnel on airline carriers around the world could also be a major source of concern?

Has anybody seen any reference to the possible consequences of SARS spreading in Iraq?

I do have to say one thing: Let's not forget that the Church of the Nativity was occupied by Palestinians for, what, a month? If this had been a Muslim holy site that had been occupied by Jews or Christians, the world would probably be in flames right now.

I do find the "lack of reaction" on the part of Christians to be interesting. In any case, you don't even hear diehard Southern Baptists kvetching about it even now.

Just want to make it absolutely clear that this observation isn't meant to be a slam on any religion, or a plug for any religion. I am just fascinated by the differences in emphasis on holy sites through the various religions. For instance, I wasn't even aware that Iraq contained a number of important Muslim holy sites.

Mosque distruction _will_ become a big issue because it will be broadcast to the Muslim street without the explanation that an attack started from the mosque.

The destruction of mosques won't be considered a big deal in the western world...

just wait for the reactions from egypt, syria...

it will only fuel claims that this is a war against the arab civilisation.

I don't think it will become a huge issue, though.

It will be a huge issue for every faithful Muslim.

simon,

Thanks, my bad.

I'm not as confindent that the media will not turn it into as large an incident as possible. The lawsuit Sean-Paul referenced may mention only FOX, but I don't believe that any of the rest of them are any better.

reg. the Fox news thing.
Bill O'Reilly says so much as "there's truth (facts) and analysis. If something we say was not true, then it was analysis".

Ok, this is not a quote, but this is the jest of what I think he may have meant.

(Disclaimer: I only "skim" Fox to see what the American people are supposed to believe next ;)

If freepers find out about this Fox news lawsuit, and they still hold up Faux news as the great jesus of the media, then i can only come to one conclusion: Freepers like to be lied to.

Of course, all the rest of us already knew Faux news lies. But here you have Murdoch saying "We can lie if we want to, and we do!"

Jury tells Fox news it is legal to lie.

Hah! As if they needed anybody's permission . . .

kachumbali,

Sure, I suppose in the heat of battle soldiers can theoretically choose to fight anywhere they want to. But the reason a soldier would choose to shoot from a mosque, hospital, or school is the presumption that their opponents will hold their fire because of the fear that civilians will be present. Finally, I disagree with those posters who have said that this will not be a big deal: Anglo-American forces will no doubt be villified and condemned in the Arab world for firing upon a mosque at all, no matter what the circumstances were.

BBC 5 Live says the UK soldier killed in the Al Faw peninsula was the victim of an ambush.

ISAF HQ rocketing:

If from far (as police says), why so accurate?

If from near, why not against US Embassy across the street?

See my earlier questions and Heiders answers in open thread below:

The ISAF HQ has been fired upon several times...

Just a question...why does everybody suppose that the US embassy should be the target? Or rather...could be, and wasn't hit?

The troops are getting only one MRE a day because of course they are giving the other 2 to starving Iraqis.

This must be true, since as we all know, there is no supply problem.

Re: FOX lies legal...
Treat as suspect.

According to the Sierra Times article SP linked,

(1) the jury awarded $425K to the former FOX journalist: ie, not ok to lie

(2) it was a Fla state appeals court that said, in essence, that it was legal for FOX to fire the reporter who resisted orders to spread disinformation; ie, ok to lie
(quote: "the Court of Appeals held that the Federal Communications Commission position against news distortion is only a "policy," not a promulgated law, rule, or regulation")

As well,
(3) Sierra Times is often highly entertaining, sometimes factually reliable. Depends on which side of their worldview you got up on this morning.

Still & all, great they're blasting FAUX.

Slow war day, huh?

I noted in a BBC blurb today that Egyptian and Syrian students were quoted
today as praying "against the U.S." for the death and destruction of the coalition forces,
and, by the way, for the death of all Jews and destruction of Israel.

At my services today, we prayed for the dead (of both sides),
for the wounded (of both sides), and for peace. [Of course, between me and MY God, it is
not peace at any price, but unconditional surrender and total victory.]

Perhaps it is in what we pray for that the true distinction between the Arab mind and
the Western mind is to be found.

ISAF HQ rocketing:

If from far (as police says), why so accurate?

If from near, why not against US Embassy across the street?

Normally the rockets are fired from the hills outside of Kabul, which are not under control of ISAF or the US (the ISAF sometimes carries out patrols up there). To hit something from that far, the need a mount to launch the rockets. German and Austrian soldiers returning from Afghanistan said, that the rockets are very carfully aimed to miss the ISAF-base. Why not the Embassy? I don't know. Maybe the see it as civilian target (unlikely) or they have something different planed for it (like in Nairobi).

Does anyone have much in the way of "reasonably reliable" information on what's going on in western Iraq? It seems to be largely portrayed as 'just special forces' securing a few airfields, highways, strategic positions, etc. If you were going to throw an sucker punch at the republican guard and bagdhad, is it logical to even throw it from the west? I don't know what the approaches look like.. perhaps it might be better served primarily as air support or interdiction of supplies from Jordan and Syria? dunno. Or as a means of getting some more equipment into the mix up North, over the top of Bagdhad? Any good military minds with map knowledge in our midst (I was USAF, what the heck do I know about ground war.. other than it's the place you DON'T want fight a war from if you're in the AF!.. God bless the forward air controllers, though. maniacs.)

lb

It could very well be just that and nothing more, due to the lack of reporting going on in that region (something the U.S. military would no doubt think is a good thing. and as former member of the armed forces, I would agree with), but is it possible there is more than just that going on? Once people saw the 4th ID pass Jordan by on the way to the Gulf, there seems to have been less scrutiny on what's been going on in Jordan and, more importantly, what might have been pouring into the Iraqi desert from Jordan.

Any takers? Sean-Paul, you got any sources with updated info on western Iraq? While we're at it.. how about any new updates on additional deployments by Marine Expeditionary Forces, or other combat units who may have cropped up but are largely off the radar screen still?

lb

Fighting from mosques will happen. As pointed out by others, the russians nor the germans hesitated to fire from or into churches during WWII. I am sure the same was true of American troops but I know more about the eastern front.
It is not a big issue and should be expected during war, but it will be used by both sides as propoganda. The mouths of the military, Faux News and CNN will use it as examples of how dishonorable the Iraqis are and Al Jazeera will use it to show how the Americans are crusaders come to destroy Islam. As Public Enemy would say, "don't believe the hype" from anybody. I must say though, as an American, I find the news sources of Europe, Canada, and the Middle East far more usefull than here in the states. They are sickeningly jingoistic. I just want news. I don't need to be reminded so blatantly for whom I should be routing.

Chemical fears
: The Scotsman reports:
US INTELLIGENCE officials claim to have fresh evidence that Saddam Hussein may be preparing to use chemical weapons against coalition forces in the battle for Baghdad.
Iraqi troops have reportedly been spotted wearing full chemical protection suits and unloading large 50 gallon drums from lorries in an area south of the capital city.
The content of the drums is unknown but the information has renewed fears that US and British soldiers could face a chemical attack.

..The diplomatic debacles with Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt show, besides the Bush administration's clumsiness, its absolute determination to steamroll any dissent, democratic or otherwise.

For decades, America has maintained brutal regimes in the region to serve its economic and geopolitical interests, against the wishes of the people.

Now, it has managed to alienate the regimes as well.

This does not bode well.

Bush has mouthed platitudes about democracy in the region. But he is highly unlikely to help usher in truly representative governments and risk the consequences.

More likely, he is looking for even more pliant lackeys.

The buying off of the small sheikdoms of Qatar and Bahrain was a step in that direction. It is the conquest of Iraq, however, that will constitute the first real leap of this new imperial adventure.

We might yet see those revolutions..

From the article:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035780136865&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724

Please pray for all victims!

Tanks again Haider!

I'm buying your ISAF HQ story. Do you have one explaining why the enemy is that well supplied with rockets, but usually lack mounts/aiming devices?

To me it's a mystery, is there an explanation? If so, why haven't the newspapers given it?

The people in Afghanistan have been fighting for quite some time...and know how to use their equipment. I suppose they deliberatly targeted their missiles NOT to hit the ISAF camp...

Le Monde is reporting that Newsweek is reporting that Iraq has 1000 Russian Kornet anti-tank missles.

- 20 h 51 : L'armée irakienne équipée de missiles russes anti-chars

L'Irak aurait acheté au cours des derniers mois jusqu'à un millier de missiles russes anti-chars "Kornet", une acquisition qui inquiète les responsables militaires américains après la destruction de deux chars lourds M1 Abrams près de Samawah
au nord-ouest de Bassora, révèle l'hebdomadaire Newsweek paru dimanche. C'est la première fois que les Etats-Unis

perdent au combat deux de ces chars lourds, qui sont pourtant considérés comme "quasi-invincibles". Selon Newsweek, dans les deux cas ils ont été détruits par un missile Kornet, tiré depuis une jeep irakienne qui avait pu s'approcher des blindés pendant la tempête de sable survenue il y a quelques jours. L'hebdomadaire précise, en citant des responsables du Pentagone, que quelque 500 missiles Kornet auraient été livrés en janvier dernier au régime de Bagdad par des marchands d'armes ukrainiens. D'autres auraient pu être fournis, peut-être par des généraux syriens ayant le sens des affaires ou même par le
gouvernement de Damas, selon Newsweek.

If anyone has any further information about the UH-1 crash, please post it as soon as you get it. I have a friend in a UH-1 in that area right now and I'm concerned for his health.

If anyone has any further information about the UH-1 crash, please post it as soon as you get it. I have a friend in a UH-1 in that area right now and I'm concerned for his health.

The destruction of mosques won't be considered a big deal in the western world... .just wait for the reactions from egypt, syria... it will only fuel claims that this is a war against the arab civilisation. kachumbali

In the rush to blame America, Israel, etc., in at least some of the press of the Islamic countires and the Iraqi propaganda they repeat, the Arab world and a large part of Islam is beginning to believe the militants Islamist fiction that Arab "civilization" or Islam itself is under attack by neo-Crusaders. Unfortunately, this is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy as militancy spreads, and it will just reinforce US public opinion that "those uncivilized people" are the problem and need to be removed, having forfeited their right to play the game since they don't play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules.

Before everyone condemns Fox News, let's not forget the little incident back in '92 where NBC completely fabricated a story about General Motors pickup trucks exploding in car accidents - if you recall, NBC was caught in the lie and was forced to apologize.

And of course, we all know that if major news media is willing to lie, they will also be biased - either left or right - in their reporting.

Thank God for the internet and blogging!

The Bush administration is a danger to civil liberties, a danger to the environment, a danger to the economy, and a danger to world peace. They have alienated the good will of the world which was our due after 9-11 and they have enraged the people of the mid-east. The Bush administration is duplicious and depends upon a willfully ignorant public for their support. Dissent is not liberal; it is merely informed. It is also an obligation.

Some background info on the Fox case referred to above:

http://www.foxbghsuit.com/

raven

Your comment tells me that you are a logistics expert. Please tell me how many tons of supplies the coalition forces need to supply to their forward units daily? How many tons are being delivered? Certainly if there is a supply problem as you allege you can answer this question.

Do you think the simple fact that the coalition controls every airfield in the country outside of Baghdad might be a logistics consideration? Any idea how many tons of supplies a C-141 carries?

You carp is another weak attempt to discredit the US. You lose again.

George

I'll write a thousand letters to the White House to deal only with democracies in Arabworld. What? There are none? You mean that if the USA wants to deal with an Arab state in the ME it must, by definition, be a dictatorship or monarchy?

"Dissent is not liberal; it is merely informed"

so, should we infer that to be in agreement on these issues is something you would attribute to being UN-informed? Dissent is NOT informed.. it is an opinion, nothing more. Liberal Elitist would consider it informed, while dimissing those in agreement as being those of us who are "unwashed" in their eyes. Living in Boston, I know this all too well. Ever been to "The People's Republic of Cambridge"?!

lb

"I suppose they deliberatly targeted their missiles NOT to hit the ISAF camp..."

Right. We all know that the Taliban and Al Qaeda were the very example of kindness and consideration while attempting to kill.

You can stop trying to lionize the enemy. Not only are they not supermen they are barely competent.

More on Fox News

How's this for unbiased (it sure got my blood boiling):

"The news ticker rimming Fox's headquarters on Sixth Avenue wasn't carrying war updates as the protest began. Instead, it poked fun at the demonstrators, chiding them. 'War protester auditions here today ... thanks for coming!' read one message. 'Who won your right to show up here today?' another questioned. 'Protesters or soldiers?' Said a third: 'How do you keep a war protester in suspense? Ignore them....' Still another read: 'Attention protesters: the Michael Moore Fan Club meets Thursday at a phone booth at Sixth Avenue and 50th Street.'" Fox claims the network "didn't mean to insult anyone."

http://www.bergenrecord.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2MzU5NDQy

The information about FOX is about halfway down.

As pi points out, the appellate court overturned the jury's decision that it was not okay to lie. I believe that this was entirely a judge's decision (perhaps more than a single judge).

I don't think that a jury would hold with this. Well, except maybe in Florida. :-)

45lphi

Could you be a little more general please? I suggest you add the bit about Bush making Texas barbecue sauce with baby blood. Hey, it's part of the ethos of the palestinius bacillus crowd.

Start Quote:
I noted in a BBC blurb today that Egyptian and Syrian students were quoted today as praying "against the U.S." for the death and destruction of the coalition forces, and, by the way, for the death of all Jews and destruction of Israel.
Posted by janetrae51 at March 30, 2003 03:50 PM
End Quote:

So whats new ?

Mad Dog