We can't begin to imagine the desperate carnage and confusion that's going on now in places like Basra. Thanks to Sean-Paul and all participating Agonistas. I happen to think that the noise in the comments is a big part of what makes this site useful. Now, about the Open Thread exchange between DavidByron, Michael, and others last night, here's a further comment:

There are plenty of intelligent people who support the war. William Kristol, for instance, and Rumsfeld himself, and even O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, are unquestionably smart, articulate men, whether you agree with them or not. And there are thimblebrained people who oppose it.

But I've been very struck, listening to the back and forth of callers to C-SPAN, at the combination of profound dimbulbedness and FURY that is audible in the pro-war voices. It really is disturbing. They're very dumb and they're seething with anger, a bad combination--and Bush, the quintessential Angryman, is their proxy. The anti-war voices calling C-SPAN are (this too is a generalization, of course) more troubled, tentative, trying to think it through. Conclusion: This country has a class war brewing.

Mr. Rumsfeld need not bother himself with
telling us the news about Basra. If we want
the news about Basra or any other place we
will simply turn to the internet. The real
"shock and Awe" of this war is the internet.
After seeing it's effects future chickenhawks
will think long and hard before sticking their necks out to pursue any agendas. Methinks the "World Wide Web" is becoming the very thing to ensure world peace at last!

But what are the two classes? Liberal/conservative? Educated/Know-nothing? The traditional prol/boug seems to have broken down, likewise white/blue collar seems to be losing relevence

I haven't watched C-SPAN in the last few days (there always seems to be a CENTCOM press conference on), so I can't comment on your observation on pro-war voices. But I do know that the angriest voice I've heard on C-SPAN in years came from an anti-war guy about three weeks before the war started. Just a cry of fear and despair, the guy sounded near tears, and he said something like "What kind of evil people are these?" (ie current administration). He didn't sound like a crank. He sounded like a very scared guy who hadn't intended to scream over the air during his call.

The tone of that guy's voice has stayed with me for some reason.

Sort of russian links, taken from kuro5hin.org
- http://www.aeronautics.ru/ --> They translate the reports from the huge GRU national intelligence agency
- http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en --> What they do is add a bunch of "scoop" stories that come over the air, along with some propaganda and analysis
- http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news071.htm --> a description of how US frequency-hopping radio transmissions are cracked
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PEACE

Sort of russian links, taken from kuro5hin.org
- http://www.aeronautics.ru/ --> They translate the reports from the huge GRU national intelligence agency
- http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en --> What they do is add a bunch of "scoop" stories that come over the air, along with some propaganda and analysis
- http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news071.htm --> a description of how US frequency-hopping radio transmissions are cracked
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PEACE

sorry for the replay :-/

Does that estimate on munitions include those in Korea and/or with units/ships stationed around the Pacific? I can't fathom the US military using stockpiles so rapidly while a potential conflict carries on unattended to.

Just finished watching Mr. Rumsfeld on "This Week". It struck me how many times he refered to the plan as "General Frank's plan", "his plan", etc...

I've got news for the Donald. Basra will never be completely subdued. Neither will Baghdad. What we are going to be forced to do is some serious goal changing. We are going to have to re-define what constitutes victory. There are two ways we can go here. One is to invest Baghdad and then send a continuous series of special ops on missions to assasinate Saddamn. If we get him we declare victory and get the hell out. The other is to invest Baghdad making Saddam the "mayor of Baghdad and then try to re-engage the international community. Fire up the inspection process again. If necessary plant some WMD so that we can discover it, destroy it and then get the hell out of there. Or perhaps a combination of these two approaches. Otherwise we will be talking about the next phase of the war this time next year.

0924 EST / 1424Z Foxnews reports elements of the 10th Mountain Division airlifting to Bashir airbase, Kurdish Iraq, to link with 173rd and Kurdish elements.

running out of missiles and bullets??? make more. munitions workers are well paid, high tax rate, spend the money they earn, retailers need more stuff, more jobs created to make stuff, more taxes. war = the greatest economic stimulous a country can have. look at the boom created after WW2. japan and germany have never looked back. they are gonna make them anyway so we might as well look at the bright side.

But what are the two classes? Liberal/conservative? Educated/Know-nothing? The traditional prol/boug seems to have broken down, likewise white/blue collar seems to be losing relevence

I agree. This crisis has not split people down the traditional lines, except some pockets (ie diehard Southern Baptist and diehard San Francisco anti-globalization protester, etc) . I don't know if it was here on the comments board or elsewhere, but I've seen it suggested that what some people are hoping for is a "Libertarian Democrat" to run for office.

I'm a Democrat. I have mild gun-control sentiments, don't like it when politicians are "in bed with" the NRA, etc., and I think the easy availability of guns contributes to a lot of needless deaths. However, I find that in a time of crisis, my stand grows increasingly toward protecting the Bill of Rights, and that includes the Second Amendment. And it's not because I agree with the gun nuts or the hunters. It's because I understand now why the Founding Fathers put that right in there, and I would be terrified to have it gone.

I find it interesting that Howard Dean has gotten some flak for being pro 2nd Amendment, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were other Democrats out there who increasingly don't give a damn that he does, if not actually relieved about it.

There may be certain issues which the Democratic voters will be willing to drop at a time like this; I can't claim to know what they are, but whoever wins the opposition nomination to Bush will have to be canny about knowing which issues these are.

is Garner guy a member of the Carlyle group also.

US Marines called up A-10 strike aircraft to deal with ‘pockets of resistance’ but even the BBC ‘failed’ to mention that the A-10 uses DU rounds. They are spraying uranium aerosols in Iraq; and no one is being told
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-3-2003_pg4_19
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That NYT taxi piece is really disconcerting. Three *other* taxis were destroyed and their occupants killed, though they weren't packed with explosives.

I found this very telling from Sean's 9:19 link to Arab News:

http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24481

"When we finally made it to Safwan, Iraq, what we saw was utter chaos. Iraqi men, women and children were playing it up for the TV cameras, chanting: “With our blood, with our souls, we will die for you Saddam.”

I took a young Iraqi man, 19, away from the cameras and asked him why they were all chanting that particular slogan, especially when humanitarian aid trucks marked with the insignia of the Kuwaiti Red Crescent Society, were distributing some much-needed food.

His answer shouldn’t have surprised me, but it did.

He said: “There are people from Baath here reporting everything that goes on. There are cameras here recording our faces. If the Americans were to withdraw and everything were to return to the way it was before, we want to make sure that we survive the massacre that would follow as Baath go house to house killing anyone who voiced opposition to Saddam. In public, we always pledge our allegiance to Saddam, but in our hearts we feel something else.”

Different versions of that very quote, but with a common theme, I would come to hear several times over the next three days I spent in Iraq.

The people of Iraq are terrified of Saddam Hussein."

Has the ring of truth. I expect that we should see massive support when it is clear that Saddam and his henchmen are gone for good.

From Mo Dowd in the NYT this morning:
"The incoherence of the battle plan — which some retired generals say is three infantry divisions short — has made the guts and stamina and ingenuity of American forces even more remarkable."
And even 'tho I've been furiously against this "war" (spelled i-n-v-a-s-i-o-n) the above made me feel so proud of our kids. Just one reason I've been so against it is our kids and grandkids being put in harm's way without consensus and without proper planning and with some uber-christian chickenhawk rationale. As Mo says, I know our hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didn't they, like, read about it?('fr christ's sake? expletive mine.)

The Independent found a man (unknown to the Iraqi government, the reporter says) who found the ID tag of the missile that hit Shu'ale (the market massacre): it's [serial number] 30003-704ASB 7492 followed by "B" or "H" and [Lot number]MFR 96214 09. Anyone want to chase this down?

Here's the link to the story, but I have to warn everyone that it is EXTREMELY GRUESOME:

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=392161

One thing I think we can all agree on: the wish to see the Iraqi people freed from living in constant terror of dictators, starvation and bombs.

However, these wishes always have assumptions attached to them... from what I have read of Iraqis' attitude toward the American invaders, they regard them not as heroic liberators but as a force of nature that just happens to be working in their favor at the moment.

For Americans who don't feel the need to have their national mythology of "the good, the selfless, the heroic American" fed further, that won't matter. But it's really going to bother those who live by that mythology. (Not to mention it's going to bother those who want a nice all-American reconstruction of the country.)

Has the ring of truth. I expect that we should see massive support when it is clear that Saddam and his henchmen are gone for good.

Until they start to rediscover their hate for occupation and the US.

Could someone comment on when summer temperatures arrive in Iraq?

I am hearing the US forces may delay an attack on Baghdad for 4- 6 weeks. What will daily max and min temperatures be at that time?

If Iraq does have chemical weapons and decides to use them against US forces engaged in urban combat in the hot of the summer, it will be brutal for all the combatants. (Not to mention the ongoing tragedy of civilian deaths.)

Could someone comment on when summer temperatures arrive in Iraq?

End of April/Begin of May.

Regarding the many questions about the locations and units of embedded journalists, here is a "Media Map":

http://www.poynter.org/content/content_view.asp?id=27071http://www.poynter.org/content/content_view.asp?id=27071

Just saw a report on CNN from Walter Rodgers, embedded with the 3-7 Cavalry who reports that forward units are probing the Medina Division of the RG 50 miles outside of Baghdad. Their goal is to lure them out of their defenses so that helicopters and planes can attack them more easily. Senior commanders Rodgers spoke to claim that the Medina Divivion has been degraded to 45-50% of strength in the fighting so far.

Whatever the merits of the 2nd amendmnet are, individual or collective gunowners will not be a match for the miltary fascist state that has developed in the uS in the last two years.
The only hope for individuals is political ayslum or emigration.

Watching the sunday shows, I am struck by EVERY SINGLE GUEST saying that the outcome of the war is not in doubt. Considering the track record so far, I'd feel better if they'd stop asserting this!

Last week I had no doubt about the outcome, but now?

This news item is interesting. Chretien is paying a price, for the moment, at least, for standing aloof from the war:

Support for Chrétien's war policy sags
By SHAWN McCARTHY
From Saturday's Globe and Mail

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030329.uchre0329/BNStory/National

The Observer has 2 articles about Jay Garner (the guy supposed to run post-war Iraq), the one Sean-Paul posted and a second longer one called Man who would be 'king' of Iraq
BTW, for those who don't know, despite it's liberal politics, the Observer has been largely pro-war in it's editorial stance.

Oh, and Bill the manufacturers number (96214) on the munition fragment found by the Independent reporter indicated it was made by Raytheon, and while I can't identify the rest, the format is very similar to that found on a bomb dropped on Kosovo in '99, which makes me think it may be a Paveway LGB.

Bill, just checked out the link on the Independant website re: the massacre of civilians in a market place and the lettering on the side of the fragments they found.

If you put it in a search engine, it all seems to link to Raytheon products, suggesting that it was US.

Surprising how the US can be so sure when it has hit something right, and yet so unsure when it looks like it's hit something wrong. Hmmmm, they're not winning my heart and mind, so i doubt they're winning the Iraqi's either.

Reporting on war, like war itself, is harrowing
http://www.pressherald.com/insight/guttman/030330jeannine.shtml
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PEACE

Roger,

I think that you'd have to agree that the Anglo-American forces will take Baghdad and remove the regime. 300 mile long supply lines are very vulnerable to attack, and the choice to bypass large urban areas in order to concentrate forces at Baghdad has exposed those forces to harrying attacks at critical chokepoints upon lines of transport and supply like Basra and Nasariyah.

The question that is in doubt is how many lives will be lost (combatant and civilian), and how will the "reconstruction" of Iraq be handled, and will the Iraqi populace support or oppose that process.

Best,

Juan

Hey aa- take your pills and put your aluminum foil hat back on.

If these missles are so accurate, how come we can't fire them over Turkey or SA anymore?

I think that it was last night that S-P put up the link to the German media account that they don't believe that Bhagdad can be taken by anyone.

TV alone won't provide clear picture of war
http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1048856133250440.xml
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PEACE

Re: temperatures in Iraq. Accuweather is
predicting a great rise in temperatures
starting this week although there is also a
chance of yet another sandstorm. By mid-April
temperatues in the desert are routinely in
100F range. Baghdad is cooler but not
comfortably so. Our greatest worry is the
effect on "Ambush Alley." The heat will play hell on troops and equipment.The only
good news is that the Arabian warrior avoids
fighting in summer. Well, we'll see.

/"Bill, just checked out the link on the Independant website re: the massacre of civilians in a market place and the lettering on the side of the fragments they found. If you put it in a search engine, it all seems to link to Raytheon products, suggesting that it was US."/

Can you say which terms you searched for? I can't reproduce that.

More on Jay Garner can be found here--

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_13/b3826609.htm -- via Business Week Online

I will try to find more.

Roger,

Thanks for the pointer to the German report; I checked it out last night. I guess we'll all have to wait and see. I saw Rumsfeld interviewed by the press this morning as he was shuttling into NBC News, and he stated two interesting factoids: (1) 2,000 to 3,000 troops are arriving at the theater of war daily; and (2) he claims this is "all according to plan" and he hasn't signed a new deployment order in several weeks.

Turn to "Sunday Morning" right now. Showing world press, including US

The Independent found a man (unknown to the Iraqi government, the reporter says) who found the ID tag of the missile that hit Shu'ale (the market massacre): it's [serial number] 30003-704ASB 7492 followed by "B" or "H" and [Lot number]MFR 96214 09. Anyone want to chase this down?

Someone mentioned in another comment thread that the number 96214 is a code for raytheon. I did a bit of digging and found it to be correct.
96214 is in this case a NCAGE code, "NATO Commercial And Government Entity"

Here's a link with a bit of info on the NCAGE codes:
http://www.naples.navy.mil/nrcc/business/#CAGE

And here is a NCAGE search engine, put 96214 in the CAGE field and you come up with raytheon.
http://www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil/bincs/begin_search.asp

Raytheon produces a lot of weapons for the US military, amongst others the tomahawk and JDAM i believe. If the article is to be trusted, the missile is conclusively american.

william, yep sure can mate

1. use google

2. use the search term MFR 96214 09, after the 'lot' number of the weapon.

One of the pages that'll flash up (supposing you guys aren't being censored by your government ;-) ) will be:

www.dscr.dla.mil/procurement/SASPS_II_RFQ/2003022.txt

another,

www.dscc.dla.mil/downloads/acqforecast/october02/fle5985.txt

Happy hunting, victory to the intifada

And you believe anything that Herr Rumsfeld says??
The truth is the RG is repelling the American forces everytime they have met.

Way to build friends:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2900541.stm

...
It's a sign of the nervousness here that a group of Marines opened fire on a civilian vehicle after hearing what they thought was a gunshot. Later, it emerged that the car had simply backfired.

All three occupants were killed.
...

bm,

Chill out and read what I actually posted. Rodgers, the embedded CNN reporter, mentions the RG engagements. Rumsfeld's comments were a separate issue in the post. Take Rumsfeld's comments as you wish, I was simply passing them along.

"Your search - "MFR 96214 09" - did not match any documents."

Hey william check this out then, its a printscreen of the google page hosted on my msn account:

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwDeAgMWKiVX6t14uQN1H*IDnVfSyEO4v!MALdcfOn8Vhicx1hOAxayeBNLjlJnC0iz42LQPovdFZWPmOMPRadMl4c!Dxa!!UG24nSZlbEI/censored.JPG

"Your search - "MFR 96214 09" - did not match any documents."

works for me and the results are exacly as described.

Are you guys in different countries? Is this any sign of censorship going on?

I'm in the UK if that helps

Article in Post today refers to No WMD found as yet, using the information and air maps they were so sure indicated them. Have quickly investigated four of the top 10 most threatening and ones they were so sure about, now moving on to 200-300 others, of 1400(!) because the WH is *acutely* aware of need to produce proof. Wonder how long before that "proof" is manufactured?

Thanks for the Canada story link. I have in the back of my mind wondered what the war and world turmoil would do to the never-quite-gone question of Quebec sovereignty.

I have an interest in this because I'm an upstate New Yorker. I'm very interested in the effects all this unrest is having on regional attitudes, both in Canada and in the United States. I do not believe the U.S. is as culturally homogeneous as everyone thinks concerning the support (or lack of) for the war.

I was searching for the whole phrase. Turns out that "96214" is the only crucial part to link it to Raytheon. See:

http://www.acq.osd.mil/ar/package.htm

Has a list of CAGE Codes.

Many thanks.

Re: Fighting in the desert. What people do in the desert, in summer, is to do it at night ("we own the night") and before 10:00 AM if you need light. Other than the details of routine misery, which both sides will face, I don't think this will change the balance significantly, although it is certainly no fun to us "armchair warriors".

Have US military admitted that first marketplace bombing was their own weapon, then?

Re; "Rummy";

Anyone remember how much hate was focused on DoD Sec Mcnamara in the Vietnam war? I can see it comming now for Rummy. His ascerbic style sets him up, big time, too!

Here's a sick one. Two days after the apparently Raytheon-manufactured device hit the market place, they issued this press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.pl?ACCT=149999&TICK=RTN&STORY=/www/story/03-28-2003/0001916038&EDATE=Mar+28,+2003

It announces a $0.20 share dividend payout on sales last year of $16.8 billion. US military may not be winning yet, but I know who is.

David Lazarus of the SF Chronicle covered Jay Garner's links to the arms industry in an article published last month:
'General reverses his role'
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/26/BU48310.DTL

Article in Post today refers to No WMD found as yet, using the information and air maps they were so sure indicated them. Have quickly investigated four of the top 10 most threatening and ones they were so sure about, now moving on to 200-300 others, of 1400(!) because the WH is *acutely* aware of need to produce proof.

I find this interesting as well, and also notice it's something the US news media isn't mentioning lately.

One of the reasons du juor for invading Iraq (and for breaking from the UN) was that Georgie knew that Iraq had WMD, had "proof", and even knew where they were.

Yet... for some reason he couldn't show the American people that proof, nor could he tell the UN Inspectors where to go look.

Wonder how long before that "proof" is manufactured?

That's directly related to how long it takes the bulk of the American public to start questioning why we're really there.

Re: "But what are the two classes?"

Sometimes, in war, the two classes don't seem evident at the outset. I predict, because this is a clash of two religious based societies, religion will keep it pumped up. Toward the end, the two classes that will emerge will be the religious and the non-religious (ones who want to insure States do not base their actions on religious grounds).

There is a thousand year history to bear this out. The religious zealots build the basis for the war - when everything boils down to "I know what God has to say" - the ones that will eventually protest continuing it will say "That is not at issue here".

As to surprise that we are not embrased as liberators: After 1300 years of being taught there are only two types of people - Believers and the devil, what did we expect? If some guy comes up to you with horns and a tail, smiling, holding out food, telling you anything you want to hear, are you going to trust him? Duh.....

Re: Fighting in the desert. What people do in the desert, in summer, is to do it at night ("we own the night") and before 10:00 AM if you need light. Other than the details of routine misery, which both sides will face, I don't think this will change the balance significantly, although it is certainly no fun to us "armchair warriors".

Are you suggesting that a people who have lived in such a climate for so long would not use that as a tactical advantage?

I wonder if The Amazing Ever Changing Yet Never Deviated From Plan also makes the assumption that no one in Iraq would consider using the desert heat as an ally and fight when we didn't want to.

BrianRoach;

While GWB is not the brightest bulb in the socket, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove are not going to base their presidency on spurious claims.

This guy has Bio/Chems. He will use them when he determines that he has nothing to lose in his only strategy left - get the Muslim world to rise up and smack us. Once he sees this is not going to happen (but, it could still) he will use them as a last resort.

On finding SH: This guy is outside Baghdad, in the suburbs or farther out in the country, waiting for his relatively easy trip to Syria, and then perhaps Russia. The question is: Will the Chickenhawks go into Syria to flush him out. If so, this plays the Muslim street like a fiddle. Now that we have what we want - Regime change - why do we need to get him? He will them become a "living martyr". The most dangerous of enemies.

BrianRoach;

"Are you suggesting that a people who have lived in such a climate for so long would not use that as a tactical advantage?"

Of course they would. However, have you ever been to the Mohave or Sonora desert? We have always had many, many training excercises in this type element. As dumb as DoD has been so far, they know what fighting in the heat is.

In addition, what you do in the daytime in the desert is rest in the shade. Your "sombrero" will give you away to the A-10's and F##'s. Again, no significant change in the BALANCE.

All the opinions concerning the proscecution of this war are almost totally useless. Nobody knows what "the plan" is, and no one apppears to be applying their criticsm in context.

Points people are missing:
Why does the Pentagon "Old Guard," State and the CIA work to discredit Rumsfeld? They have been leaking every iteration of the war plan since "Axis of Evil." There was also a campaign of criticsm about Afghanistan which was ridiculously premature. Here's what I think:

1) Civilian control
These Vietnam vets will attack anything THEY deem as McNamara-ism (i.e. Civilians directing the battle plan.) Its a knee-jerk response which they need to relax becuase it'll end up making them look like fools, as the Rumsfeld-Franks plan rolls up the Abbasids in a month. McNamara never changed his thinking, or his tactical approach. His actions were directed by Johnson anyway, who appears to have been a murderous coward, afraid of doing what he needed to do to win. Rummy and Co. are all about real-time tactical adjustment. They will learn what you are giving them and then take you out. We have yet to engage the enemy in a desicive way. The enemy has been desperately pursuing us while dispairing over a lack a sanctuary.

2. Crusader vs. JDAM
Rummy's plans involves the phasing out of heavy, expensive land pieces in favor of Spec Ops directed inexpensive prescision guided munition. A JDAM is a dumb bomb with "smart" tail added on. It transforms our "rolling thunder" stockpile into millions upon millions of prescision pieces. This puts General Dynamics out of business. Along with all those nifty consulting arrangements all those Army Alumni are retiring with. Heavy, slow colummns of armor rumbling in parallel towards Bagdad would have taken forever, placed MUCH MUCH more emphasis on the quartermaster, and been even more of a static target prone to militia-sorry to say.

3. Spec Ops vs. Conventional Forces
These Army guys hate spec ops as a matter of tribal rivalry. They hate that they cede budget to them. They hate that they are un-conventional and assymetric. They hate that these forces are snobs. They are pulling for their own in this war and that means Heavy Metal.

4. Plum Ignorance
These guys don't know what we can do integrating joint operations the way we do now. Bridge heads don't need a armour squad to protect it any more. Supply lines can be non-linear in an air dominance battlefield environment. We already have forward air bases for A10s in theater, they can be converted if necessary. We just put down an armored division in the north by air. We can do that because Green Berets have been making the ground friendly enough to operate, liaising with Kurds and spotting targets for JDAM-age. These Army guys look at the battlefield and see us "too deep" like we're army group center in Barbarosa. Given the above developments in doctrine, we are encircling the enemy inside of a fortnight with less than 60 total deaths in theater. 60 out of 300,000! Along with the fact that the RG is attrited 45-55%, this looks to me like "Iraqi Freedome" is going to go down as yet another world histroical shift in warfighting spearheaded by Rummy and Franks.

FOR YOU ANTI-WAR "FOLKS"
Once we discover and exploit the Al Qaida camps infested throughout Iraq, and that the Fedayeen has been trained there along with the UBL Jihad-niks; you anti-war kids will have to find some pretty crazy reasons as to why the USA shouldn't fighting this war...but I digress...

"FOR YOU ANTI-WAR "FOLKS"
Once we discover and exploit the Al Qaida camps infested throughout Iraq, and that the Fedayeen has been trained there along with the UBL Jihad-niks;"

Is this guess work? Or do you have a source for it? Seems unlikely that Saddam would have messed with an organisation that is so hostile to him - except perhaps as a last resort once the US military build up had made war inevitable.

"Once we discover and exploit the Al Qaida camps infested throughout Iraq..."

wow, and yet i wonder why there aren't any sat photos of them?

Heh heh, you're obviously privilege to better intel than the UK, French German, Russian, Chinese (aw heck the rest of the world excl. US) governments.

Postman, the issue is not whether or not Rumsfeld has dome good things. The problem is that it appears that Rumsfeld came up with the idea of using a lesser amount of ground forces than we have even now. With some ~5 divisions of troops in IRaq, coalition forces are stetched too thin to be able to mass at multiple points. Clearly, the 5 division plan assumed the best case scenario, not the worst case. While we can thank the Turks for not allowing the 4th ID intoTurkey, there should of been another heavy unit in theatre from the beginning.

Mad Dog

Oh well, that's the problem of unilateral action isn't it (face it: the 'coalition of willing' is a pretty laughable term)?

Funny how the Inspectors could only get a couple of months, but the miltary can take as long as it needs.

Good job Postman! If I recall, since I was in High School then college during Vietnam, living on an Air Force Base, with three of my imediate family in the Air Force, thus took a keen interest in TV war reporting, there was a domestic war as well.

These "peace-niks" played a very important role in continuing the dialogue on justificatiion of the ongoing war. This was good. And, is good now.

Many people who argued against the Iraq war during the discussion stage, myself included, believe that we had no choice in th long run, but to get this thing started and over with. The vote is in, (roughly 60% in favor before the 48 hour deadline) Now, let's win this thing. Those that were in favor of winning it only with "politically correct constraints" were, and perhaps still are, naive.

"Overwhelming force" means if SH uses civilians as shields, then we shoot as best as possible, but without "tying the hands" of the soldier. If the civilian gets killed, SH killed him, not the GI.

Finally, I would be surprised if we accomplish our objective of ousting SH within 6 weeks to 2 months. Anyone who fell for the "sales pitch" of a week to 10 days was naive. Caveat Emptor!

MFR 96214 stands for the Cage Classification for equipment from Texas Instruments

Here are two references from a Google Search for 96214

53 - SOL:COVER ACCESS TEXAS INSTRUMENTS CORP (96214) (06/23/97)
... 53 -- COVER ACCESS TEXAS INSTRUMENTS CORP (96214) SOL SP0500-97-Q-8222 DUE
071497 POC Contact: DISC-PODA: 215-697-3398 for copies of solicitation. ...
www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/1997/ 06(June)/23-Jun-1997/53sol006.htm - 2k

59 - AWD:IAW TEXAS INSTRUMENT INC., CAGE 96214, (07/08/98)
... 59 -- IAW TEXAS INSTRUMENT INC., CAGE 96214, CNT SP0451-98-M-MC87 AMT $38,853.86
LINE 0001 DTD 070398 TO Datacom Inc 651 anchors St PO.Box 278 Fort Walton ...
www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/1998/ 07(July)/08-Jul-1998/59awd040.htm - 1k

Search for MFR 96214 leads to this

The Minicomputer Orphanage
... Mfr: Texas Instruments, Digtial Systems Group Austin, TX During the 70's TI produced
the 960, 980, and 990 computer families. ... 96214-940065, DSK DS25/50 CTLR. ...
www.spies.com/~aek/orphanage.html - 76k -

It obvíously relates to an identification tag for an Onboard microcompputer that was on the missile.

Úndoubtedly from US.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

9:11 EST At the current rate of use (precision guided munitions) Coalition forces will have only the strategic supply left in about 3 weeks.

What does strategic supply mean?

Also, at least three people, including me, have signed posts "Jon". Could we start distinguishing ourselves, please?

MadDog;

I feel certain "the plan" called for 1)rushing in to within a short day's drive of Baghdad to "draw out" the RG. No need to send in 5 divisions for this. Remember reading 2 months ago "rolling start"? 2) At the same time trying to "draw out" the head of the snake, so we could shoot him. No one ever convinced me that a spec ops plan to locate and assasinate SH was not in the works weeks before GWB took an ad hoc "opportunity" to take him out. Why would they tell us this "SH take out" plan anyway. 3) Why would we "drive past" Basrah if we thought they would cheer us liberators when we marched in? Duhhh...

Methinks overall the DoD is telling the truth when they say we are within the plan.

Of course they would. However, have you ever been to the Mohave or Sonora desert? We have always had many, many training excercises in this type element. As dumb as DoD has been so far, they know what fighting in the heat is.

I don't think X weeks of limited training in the desert compares to living in one all your life.

In addition, what you do in the daytime in the desert is rest in the shade. Your "sombrero" will give you away to the A-10's and F##'s. Again, no significant change in the BALANCE.

Given our current level of technology, does night and day make all that much difference in regard to target aquisition? (I'm not a weapons/miltech buff, so I am asking an honest question here).

And if the guys shooting at you are suffering from heat exhaustion and dehydration, I'd say that does effect balance. I'm quite sure the military trains their people to continually hydrate in these situations ... but people will be people and if it is not something you are conditioned to do the results are often mixed.

Start Quote:
MadDog;

I feel certain "the plan" called for 1)rushing in to within a short day's drive of Baghdad to "draw out" the RG. No need to send in 5 divisions for this. Remember reading 2 months ago "rolling start"? 2) At the same time trying to "draw out" the head of the snake, so we could shoot him. No one ever convinced me that a spec ops plan to locate and assasinate SH was not in the works weeks before GWB took an ad hoc "opportunity" to take him out. Why would they tell us this "SH take out" plan anyway. 3) Why would we "drive past" Basrah if we thought they would cheer us liberators when we marched in? Duhhh...

Methinks overall the DoD is telling the truth when they say we are within the plan.
Posted by MacW at March 30, 2003 11:34 AM
End Quote:

Well, as a cynic, I that that plan was somewhat optimistic and relied upon Saddam not learning the lessons of the previous war. I am sure Saddam and his flunkies are aware that a battle in the open is nothing more than a quick death fo the iraqi forces. There should of been another unit involved just in case things did not go according to plan. Another brigade would allow us to clean out Um Quasar (irregardless of any press releases) and the port (name ?) for good, including booby traps and fanboy holdouts.

Mad Dog

"Signal or noise? Regardless of opinion, it is interesting to see the vastly different perceptions vis-a-vis the Islamic media and the Western press."
Actually, I think the gulf is between the US media and the BBC. The Guardian has an article on this divide, quoting a BBC spokesperson saying in frustration that they're getting more accurate information out of Baghdad than from the Pentagon. Unlike the BBC, the US media (not you) tend to report exactly what the Pentagon tells them. Of course, some may feel that's a good thing.

The fact that Iraq may not be covered with Al Qaeda training camps is hardly going to stop US forces from finding a large number of them. Or even the US media from reporting it. An Al Qaeda training camp is an easier thing to find than WMD, and anyone you arrest there can disappear off to Guantanamo Bay. Even if it's a goat-boy. Certainly they've just released 18 Afghan taxi drivers and such after - what is it? - a year or so.