Wow...looks like on finally got through ouch..any biochem weapons or fatalities???

Was there no air-raid siren? If not, what reports suggest that it was a missile?

Oopsen?

Can we get Al Jazera TV in America? Does it have to come in on satelight

CNN

Kuwait Officials confirm missle hits Kuwait City

Came in at low atlitude so avoided detection.

Probably a Silkworm

Brian:

Good point...hard to say...I guess we'll have to sit back & see.

MSNBC - AP reports that the missile may have hit a big shopping mall in Kuwait City.

(was it really a missile then?)

MSNBC - AP reports that the missile may have hit a big shopping mall in Kuwait City.

(was it really a missile then?)

Hit a shopping mall

Sean Paul what happened to that seabees story? Has it been ruled out as false?

Guardian has an article about the BBC getting annoyed with the Pentagon's lies. They quote a "senior BBC news source" as saying,

"We're getting more truth out of Baghdad than the Pentagon at the moment"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,924172,00.html

Sean-Paul, how do you decide when to initiate a new Flash?

No one has confirmed this is a missile...Associated Press is reporting that there was an explosion at a shopping mall at the heart of Kuwait City...

NO MISSILE REPORT YET!!!

Sounds to me like a terrorist attack if anything...they have taken off the gas masks on air at MSNBC.

Sean Paul, I'd retract the missile statement.

AP - did not say missile, they are saying explosion.

Remember the first day of the war? Iraq fired a Chinese-made anti-ship cruise missile with the unfortunate code name, "Seersucker" landed close to American headquarters Camp New Jersey (I think). Maybe they got closer, then.

CNN -

Missle attack was confirmed to CNN by Kuwaiti Officials

What's a silkworm, and what's the seabees story?

An explosion in Kuwait City early Saturday sent smoke over the city. The cause was not immediately known. Details soon.
CNN Breaking NEws

OK - I stand corrected.

Silkworm is Chinese, max range of 95km. CNN is saying it was a missile, it did hit a shopping mall in Kuwait City.

Lot of shopping and market areas getting hit lately. I understand they are popular destinations ...

LJUBLJANA (Reuters) - The United States mistakenly named Slovenia as a partner in its war against Iraq (news - web sites) and even offered it a share of the money budgeted for the conflict, the tiny Alpine nation said on Thursday.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=3&u=/nm/20030328/od_nm/iraq_usa_slovenia_dc

Man...this doesn't sound to good...but isn't it about 2:00 AM there?

CNN has speculated that it was a Silkworm, because air defense sirens did not go off in Kuwait City, and the Silkworm comes in low. CNN says the Silkworm's range is 95 km. That would mean that there is still a lot of work to be done in southern Iraq.

A big shopping mall, though. That sounds like too good a shot for a lower technology missile--although it could be, well, I don't want to use the word "lucky." And in Kuwait City? It's possible. I don't doubt early reports, but the circumstances seem to suggest that it might be terrorism. We'll have to watch this one.

weren't silkworms built to sink aircraft carriers? Wouldn't that be a slightly more strategic target than a mall?

And why doesn't Murdoch just buy al-Jazeera?

MSNBC saying local Kuwaiti TV is saying it is missile at the mall

brian williams reporting 2 blocks away is confirming a missile hit.

Now Iraq is clearly targeting civilian areas. The missile hit a shopping mall. Iraq has been aiming missiles at civilians the whole time. So where is the international outcry against that?

Kuwait City:

Could be a missile, could be a bomb. BBC World has shown pictures from a rooftop and said "unknown origin". They said the target was a shopping mall.

Kuwait missile ... one of theirs or one of ours?

If memory serves, NK was accused of funneling Silkworms to Iran a while back.

Re: Seabees

One source has 400 Seabees taking fire at bridge projects inland.

Another source says 30 Seabees killed in Iraq thus far.

LJUBLJANA (Reuters) - The United States mistakenly named Slovenia as a partner in its war against Iraq (news - web sites) and even offered it a share of the money budgeted for the conflict, the tiny Alpine nation said on Thursday.

Apparently, the DoD intern responsible for lining up the "S" category in the CoW is having a bad week. The Solomon Islands complained yesterday that they had been accidently listed on the Coalition, too, and asked to be removed.

Thankfully nobody should be at a mall at 1:30 am.

Should be interesting to see how the middle eastern media plays this attack on a civilian population, since that seems to be their favorite topic so far.

i think it's still to soon to know if it's a missle or a terrorist attack. the first reports are always sketchy.

no air warnings, a mall (heavy traffic, symbol of western blah, blah, blah...) -- it smells like terror.

Just a thought here, but as far as I know (and please correct me if you have better sources than I do), the US only produced about 60 Patriot PAC-2s. According to a couple sources I found on the web (which may or may not be accurate, but whose numbers are similar to what I might expect) we had on the order of 40 of these in the Iraqi theatre (not all of which would be deployed around Kuwait City). By my count, there have been around 20 missile shoot-downs reported (maybe somebody has a more solid number?)
So, what happens when we run out? Is it possible that we already have and this is the result of using older Patriots (or whatever else we have around Kuwait City with now -- presumably in any event older technology against a missile that doesn't quite fly straight and is difficult to kill)?

ABC news is reporting that it was a car bomb, and that there is a "heavy acrid smell in the air". Hopefully, that is just from the car, and not any chemical aids...

Just a thought here, but as far as I know (and please correct me if you have better sources than I do), the US only produced about 60 Patriot PAC-2s. According to a couple sources I found on the web (which may or may not be accurate, but whose numbers are similar to what I might expect) we had on the order of 40 of these in the Iraqi theatre (not all of which would be deployed around Kuwait City). By my count, there have been around 20 missile shoot-downs reported (maybe somebody has a more solid number?)
So, what happens when we run out? Is it possible that we already have and this is the result of using older Patriots (or whatever else we have around Kuwait City with now -- presumably in any event older technology against a missile that doesn't quite fly straight and is difficult to kill)?

it's a bomb. Per CNN

Seabees.

I saw a report from a Radio-Canada (CBC French) reporter this morning. He is embedded with Seabees. He reported their position as "southern Iraq, near Nasiriyah." The unit was visited by a two-star general. At that time (Friday, during the day, Iraq time) there was no mention of a firefight or casualties.

Actually they were reporting that 1:30 AM is a time when most movie theatres are letting out, as much like most of the Med countries, people don't eat dinner until 9:30 - 10:00 PM, and then go out after that...

I remember being in Spain and not having things get started at the bars until 1:30 - 2:00 AM

Andrew Hagen...
Did you really just ask where the international outcry is? Didn't this just happen minutes ago...and was it absolutely verified yet? Jeez.

CNN now saying it was NOT a missile. It was a 'ground" explosion.

Hello Al Qaeda!

Car bomb!
-Per CNN!

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is at the shopping mall on cell phone. Appears to be a ground explosion, possibly car/truck bomb. Very significant explosion... people running... sirens going off... debris strewn for hundreds of meters.

Does Iraq have any Silkworms?

IF its a car bomb, or even a truly guided missile, sent into a mall at 1:30, it could be played as a threat by the Arab press, rather than a murderous action.

I suspect there will be no international outcry, the Iraqis will play this as a response to the "market-bombings" that the coalition is supposedly responsible for.

INFO on MISSILES in IRAQI inventory

Silkworm Missile System

The Haiying-1 (HY-1), Silkworm is a Chinese-made, anti-ship, surface-to-surface missile system. The Silkworm has a maximum range of 95 kilometers.

The Silkworm is derived from the Societ SS-N-2 Styx.

It was originally developed as a coastal defence missile. The missile was later modified for launching from Luda Class destroyer and other surface ships.

Seersucker Missile Weapon System

C-201, HY-2, SY-1, CSS-N-2, CSS-C-3, SEERSUCKER.

The Seersucker, HY-2, is a coast-to-ship defensive tactical missile weapon system.

After the missile is fired, ground guidance and control are not necessary. The firing position also remains concealed.

Maximum effective range is 95 km at high sub-sonic speed.

and the fog of war continues

The CNN reporter at the scene "explosion appeared to come from ground"

Then he took off running because everybody else started running.

How did low-altitude missile get past city to reach mall near beach? If it came from seaward, whose is it?

Or is it an ordinary car bomb, despite first on-scene reports?

2.30am empty mall perhaps a gas leak, spontaneous combustion of rags in store room etc Too early to tell can't see terroists blowing up an empty mall, unless their watches were on western time.

Following the Agonist? Writing it? http://www.msnbc.com/news/892080.asp

Again...malls are not necessarily empty at 1:30 AM.

Actually they were reporting that 1:30 AM is a time when most movie theatres are letting out, as much like most of the Med countries, people don't eat dinner until 9:30 - 10:00 PM, and then go out after that...

(Brian bangs head against desk.)

Yeah, that makes sense. Plus, isn't Friday dusk the END of the Muslim holy day? So that would mean the weekend begins. Am I right? Anybody know?

Iraq has been directing missile attacks against the civilian population of Kuwait for over a week now. Where is the outcry?

CNN's reporter on the scene now says that this explosion looks more like it was a bomb then a missile.

Well....I guess Al Qaeda has just started. This does not bode well for ANYONE. If it WAS them, when are other countries targeted...great.

yea sounds like all the news sources i understand are saying car bomb, strong smell of carbon.

what the freak does carbon smell like

Eye witness report says they saw something drop out of the sky, and hit nearby the shopping mall

I believe you are correct about the end of the Muslim holy day...chances are this mall was not entirely empty...if not pretty full.

Car bomb in Kuwait City; Turkish airliner hijacked -- the terror war is gearing up (not unexpected)

I think it's rather hasty to say "must be Al Qaeda". As I understand it, there are a lot of groups in Kuwait really pissed with the state of things right now.

Symbols:

Too many words.

Draw me a picture worth a thousand words, instead.

Then maybe I will start listening to you.

Al Jazeerah
Today's Cartoons
Arab Cartoonists Reflect on Politics
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Cartoons/Today's%20cartoons.htm

If I were Sadam, last thing I'd do right now would launch missiles at civilian areas.

If this explosion is tied to Al Qaeda, the coalition fighting Iraq is going to get bigger.

This is the first missile to hit the city. Who's to say that all the other missiles weren't armed at "legitimate military targets" which just happen to be within Kuwait City?

Isn't that the line we've been fed so far when it's a US missile/bomb?

MSNBC on Halliburton contract: "On Monday, the U.S. Army announced it had awarded a contract to extinguish oil fires and restore oil infrastructure in Iraq to Halliburton’s Kellogg, Brown & Root engineering and construction division."

I couldn't find any sign that this non-competive gift had been retracted.

It also said that Halliburton could end up with a lot of the money as a sub-contractor.

FoxNews and Yahoo have reported that the Iraqi military is preparing to use chemicals.
Fox reported that there is film of Iraqi soldiers in chem suits loading 55 gallon drums onto trucks.

Anyone else hear this????

Why would terrorists target an empty shopping mall?

SP: Re:
"6:02 EST I am having serious access problems right now. I am trying to resolve."

Have you got some kind of contingency plan? Just checking, we're have become addicted (read: dependent).

Explosion in Kuwait City -Kuwaiti Security Source

(Reuters) -
A policeman near the scene told Reuters he had seen a missile come in and land in the sea.

HEY, Whaddya know? Looks like it might be a missile...
imagine that...Iraq targeting a civilian area. *Saint Saddam Sins*...I can just see the headlines now.

Is there any correlation between the end of the Muslim holy day and increased agitation? If I recall, there were particularly strong protests and civilian activity last Friday too.

for the w. haters out there...listen up! george w. bush is not evil, he is our president, a patriot to be treated with respect, and a tough dude if I must say so myself!

with that in mind, it's up to us Americans to keep him in check, to demand that our power be used wisely and compassionately, not to mention genuinely for freedom and our cause and not cynically so...

we own America, so stand up yourselves. demand information and participation before consent, and accountability and transparency amongst our leadership.

bush is like the ceo, and the people the owners and investors. if you don't enforce the power and accountability, you may just end up losing it either by attrition, neglect, bankruptcy hostile or even friendly takeover...

don't forget who you are, and what you inalienably own. ever!

From NANOG-L (Sean Donelan):

In the last few hours, all the public Internet hosts I knew were
physically in Iraq (i.e. connected through the Iraqi state provider),
have stopped responding. I don't know the cause (power failure,
telecom failure, physical damage, shutdown by administrator, etc).

Earlier reports had multiple tomahawks going off course into Kuwait, as well as Iran. Can't find those stories any more.

I read a DoD report on Gulf War which said that old Tomahawk technology relied on land-mark recognition, and a huge number got lost in the desert (the numbers in there were much higher than the currently quoted 15%) due to lack of distinctive terrain features.

I wonder if we are firing some un-upgraded tomahawks?

"2.30am empty mall perhaps a gas leak, spontaneous combustion of rags in store room etc Too early to tell can't see terroists blowing up an empty mall, unless their watches were on western time."

...but the "US Targeting of Civilians using missiles" in Baghdad couldn't have POSSIBLY been anything but US aggression against civilians.

Mmm, hypocracy.

Again - the shopping mall would NOT BE EMPTY AT 1:30 AM - please read previous posts.

Also anything Fox reports should be treated as suspect until confirmed by a source not in bed with the religious right.

There are many links right now (go to cnn) that are reporting this has been retracted (re: Haliburton)

Sydney you are right re: surrounding military targets, however all other missiles to this point have been severely off target, and their systems aren't the best in accurately placing their missiles.

If there are no military targets around then it is safe to assume the Iraqis are just lobbing missiles into Kuwait not caring what it hits as long as it his some land based target.

MSNBC reports (from Reuters) that the new South Korean foreign minister, speaking to a gathering in advance of a chat with Colin Powell, that the US should approach the North Korean problem in the way that Nixon approached China -- by opening diplomatic relations, rather than closing them down.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/850567.asp

Yeah...but re: Bush, I don't think anyone knows the intentions of the US gov't except the military brass & the top people. I've heard this is just the beginning in the Middle East, and that from here they are going in to Syria & Iran among other Middle Eastern countries to become the #1 energy powerhouse in the world...so having heard that, who's to say that this whole war is just using Saddam as an excuse to start this initiative and start a US conquest of the Middle East. If that's the case, that will start a world war...

Re: Haliburton. I was under the impression that Kellogg Brown and Root was ALREADY awarded a contract for oil field services and fire-fighting. It sounds like they were not short-listed on the larger reconstruction contract that has not yet been awarded. I did not clearly see in the article that they have backed out of the oil field contract. Can someone clarify for me?

lol

cnn is now saying it was a missle

Did I just hear Wolf Blitzer say "we must not rush to conclusions [about Kuwait City bombing]?

What is this world comming to?

I totally agree that Saddam's just firing missiles whereever, and as long as they hit anything, he cheers.

Anybody have info on the Seabees story? I do have a reason for wanting to know other than simple interest...

gee dub is not smart enough to blame for anything...he just says what he's told...wolfowitz....pearl....rumsfield...etc...are the criminal minds at work

Ugh!

Can someone explain to me what specifically is important about the Qatar base? I thought I understood while we were leading up, but I see how we're launching planes from anywhere and everywhere, so I'm not exactly clear any more. Is it just the sophisticated command facilities? Are they really that permanent and immovable that we had to go through that rigamarole six months ago?

The site iraqbodycount is getting on my nerves. They are listing every civilian death that is supposedly caused by the Coalition. I know there are civilian deaths in a war but we are going out of our way to limit them. Some of these reported deaths seem to be very subjective.

Someone needs to start a Saddam body count site. That is, if they can find a host to store a database that BIG !!!!!!

tom:

Yeah I agree, he's just the figure head. It's everyone else that runs the show. I'm just hoping that Syria & Iran don't get involved, as that might draw Isreal and other countries into the war...Wasn't it WWI that started with just a simple assassination of Archduke Ferdinand? That's how this crap starts.

Tom: Didn't see this story, did you?

Fresh from *spin media* (CNN)
"KUWAIT CITY (CNN) -- An explosion struck a shopping mall in the center of Kuwait City early Saturday. Some early reports from Kuwaiti officials indicated the explosion may have been from a missile."

************

If it is a missle and a Silkworm variant, aren't those of Chinese design/manufacture and sold primarily to Iran?

Symbols:

I can't quite hear you yet.

Show me some pictures instead.

Al Jazeerah
News Photos - March 2003
http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20Photos/2003%20News%20photos/March%202003%20News%20Photos.htm

"The site iraqbodycount is getting on my nerves."

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this with my arm.

Doctor: Then don't do that.

If this explosion is tied to Al Qaeda, the coalition fighting Iraq is going to get bigger.

I don't follow your reasoning, Hagen. As opposed to fox news reporters, foreign heads of state are smart enough to distinguish between an alliance and a mere confluence of interests. Al Qaeda striking at Kuwait certainly can not be directed from Baghdad, as anyone can see in every country of the world minus one.

That said; shame on whoever did this. I'll raise my one small voice to condemn this slaughter of innocent Kuwaiti civilians.

Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant.

when did israel take control of our goverment???

Abu Dhabi TV is showing pictures of what appear to be missile parts/shrapnel on the ground at the Shark Mall in Kuwait City

Tom:

Yeah I just figured that crap out about jinsa and everything. I've kinda figured it that Israel runs EVERYTHING...from the Oscars to the Superbowl to the fate of Iraq.

"Explosion rocks Kuwait City" from CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/28/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html) shows picture of iraqi man after baghdad bombing....

well...we've secured the oil and secured israel....not too many dead...first things first....

CNN is back to reporting missile.

Sounds like Sean-Paul may have overstated that the MSNNC article states that Halliburton won't get ANY Iraqi contracts. They just won't be the Prime Contractor on the big reconstuction contract. A rare miss.

BTW.. LOVE this site. Except I am gaining weight from lack of exercise and sleep. Must seek therapy.

Look on the bright side...baseball season starts in three days...

The national pasttime cures all of our ills...

Right?

It is pretty despicable if the mall was targeted; however, having said that I wouldn't be entirely surprised.

I don't understand why the Iraqi's would do this. I am not surprised they would just fire off missles knowing the chances of them hitting any military significant are slim, and civilian areas high, but in the war of the media, this hurts their case a lot.

in re: HAL subsidiary billion-dollar deal:
- awarded without bidding
- HAL is *not* giving it back
- Waxman (D, CA) already sent letter demanding explanation

should be fun to hear the explanation for why a billion smackers went to the VP's ex-emnployer without any other bidders.

Silkworms are launched in the general direction of enemy naval units, and have the ability to acquire their own target by radar, so that targets can be engaged over the visual/radar horizon.

It is possible that such a missile was launched because Iraq was running out of launch territory near the coast to target US Navy. Since few large ships would be in range, the search radar picked out an attractive slab of concrete on the horizon.

Hence, it doesn't follow that there is some particular malice against Kuwaiti consumers.

Iraq doesn't hve missiles capable of targeting anything. Just throwing up stuff at random targets isn't any better, but be clear about whats going on.

I don't understand why the Iraqi's would do this.

Who said it was Iraq?

missle souce?

50% - iraq
45% - us
4% - terrorist
1% - other

How accurate are these Silkworms anyway? Could you actually target a shopping mall from 95 km and expect to hit it with any degree of accuracy?

well one thing for sure...there will be no more terrorist actions....i feel so much safer now....

Don't be naive, Colereux. If Al Qaeda comes to the aid of Hussein, everyone will see that the two are tied together.

Anyway, that is theoretical. It now looks like a missile, and not a bomb.

Did anyone hear (on CNN) that huge explosion in Baghdad?

You CAN'T tell me that people are buying into the fact that Iraq hasn't done anything wrong, can you???? How can firing a missile into a mall compare to assassinating PoW's or all the war deviance they are pulling? Saddam will do ANYTHING in his power to keep his regime in power. If that means killing innocents when the time comes, he will. The closer the US gets to Baghdad and him, the more s**t will hit the fan...including (in my opinion) Bio/Chem weapons.

Some of the scraps of metal which appear to possibly be missile parts which are being shown on Abu Dhabi TV appear to bear writing in English...

Correction... If the figures I am seeing are correct I misstated that Haliburton won't be the prime on the LARGER reconstruction contract. The reconstruction contract apparently is $600 Million and the already awarded (sole source to Kellogg Brown & Root - A Haluburton subsidiary) oilfired contract is $1 Billion. Can anyone else confirm this?

How can firing a missile into a mall compare to assassinating PoW's or all the war deviance they are pulling?

from the news i hear the killing of pows proved to be bogus

"...but the "US Targeting of Civilians using missiles" in Baghdad couldn't have POSSIBLY been anything but US aggression against civilians.

Mmm, hypocracy.
Posted by sashae at March 28, 2003 06:22 PM

Sashae, care to point out anyone who says the US targeted civilians? I haven't read every post, but it seems like the upset anti-war folk accept that if the market missile was ours, it was accidental. And if you haven't seen anyone post that, then why are you?

Arrgh. Let's keep this civil, folks.

Don't be naive, Colereux. If Al Qaeda comes to the aid of Hussein, everyone will see that the two are tied together.

This is potentially falacious reasoning. If A does X, and B does X, then A is equal to B?

Symbols:

There must be some sand in my eyes.

I still can't hear you.

Can you show me anything else?

Google Image Search
Search Results
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+&btnG=Google+Search

hutch:

You have to be kidding me...really is that would you heard? (I mean I know not to believe half the crap CNN is jamming down our throats, but I have to admit, I thought that the PoW thing was for real). Could it have been a Tomahawk that was launched & malfunctioned...I haven't been paying attention, are they launching Tomahawks from the gulf, or the med. sea only?

haven't seen this reported here: red cross delegate murdered in afghanistan. i saw this first in IRNA which is amazingly even-handed and well-informed.

Could someone tell me how these guys new what would happen and CENTCOM had no clue? Any thought on the source?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news066.htm

If it is an anti-ship missile, then from where was it shot? Al Faw Peninsula? But I thought Al Faw was controlled by the Brits...

Ahh . . . the media is so good at speculating. I almost wish I weren't at work so I could watch the masters at work.

The accuracy of this, from the "fake media," is terrifying:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3701/bush_nightmare.html

Beware: I left my real email address on this website and got my first Nigerian E-mail scam today.

Regarding the attack: if it's a bomber, there is no reason to believe it was al-Qaida, especially. It can be a nationalist bomber, too.

Regarding it being a missile: The richest nation in the world, population 291 million, bombing the capital of Iraq (population 24 million poor) from 30,000 feet or more, and sending missiles hundreds of miles to it, as well. Hundreds of thousands of the world's best troops against the regime. What did we expect? They're not going to play nice, by our rules.

Some of the scraps of metal which appear to possibly be missile parts which are being shown on Abu Dhabi TV appear to bear writing in English...

went back in time (ty dvr) and the words are english

can't make out 1st word
looks like

piea*t (t could be i or part of u)
protract***

Yeah I'm sure if the US targeted Civilians, it was only the BAD civilians.

Could it be that the Kuwait City explosion was caused by a Tomahawk, or a Patriot?

Just a thought. There was a report a while back of a missile landing in Turkey.

Wrongbutton, there are no military targets in Kuwait City. Yet, Iraq targets Kuwait City. The accuracy of their missiles is immaterial.

The bottom line is that Iraq has been targeting civilian neighborhoods from day 1 of this war. Now they've hit one. Meanwhile, Iraq seeks international sympathy for every civilian death in Iraq, no matter how many women and children they use as human shields.

Also, the press is partially at fault here. They keep reporting where Iraq's missiles are falling. That is a breach of acceptable conduct. Every time they do that, Iraq's missile forces can make adjustments. It's time for the press to start being more responsible. I don't want to hear any more about missiles hitting the water, or falling short of Kuwait City. That should not be reported until victory is achieved.

"If it is an anti-ship missile, then from where was it shot? Al Faw Peninsula? But I thought Al Faw was controlled by the Brits..."

It was developed as a anti-ship missle but it can be shot from land.

keep looking

You have to be kidding me...really is that would you heard? (I mean I know not to believe half the crap CNN is jamming down our throats, but I have to admit, I thought that the PoW thing was for real).

yea, been hearing it from multiple sources. been to a bazillion sites for news so not sure which ones, but i would try www.antiwar.com.

Coalition troops working their way north toward the capital have been engaged in heavy fighting with Iraqi forces -- particularly in the southern cities of Nasiriya and Tikrit.

Sean-Paul: It's pretty clear this nitwit doesn't know what he's talking about.

Flip:

If you're referring to the Masters as in the PGA tourney...you'll be waiting awhile. This wkd is the TPC @ Sawgrass...

colereux said:

"That said; shame on whoever did this. I'll raise my one small voice to condemn this slaughter of innocent Kuwaiti civilians."

Don't get him wrong folks: he'll still raise his voice against the US much louder. He's also not going to protest, or get upset, or literally raise his voice for that matter. But he's willing to give the prefunctory "I'm fair and balanced" condemnation post. Nor did he do actually protest (either side) when Saddam murdered tens of thousands in Bursa after the United States abandoned them in 1991 under UN pressure, nor when did he actually do anything when the Twin Towers fell (save the arguments that they weren't related; I'm talking about connected duplicity, not the Queda-Saddam connection). Sure, he felt bad, but that wasn't worth actually doing anything about. One can't be expected to actually be called to action on behalf of either American or Arab loss of life unless Americans are somehow responsible, you see.

From MSNBC KUWAIT CITY, March 29 — A missile landed near the waterfront in central Kuwait City shortly before 2 a.m. Saturday, causing a huge explosion and unleashing a large plume of smoke but apparently causing little damage and no injuries, a Kuwaiti police official said.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/892361.asp?0cv=CA01

so if missile, then it seems it did not hit the city but the waterfront....but again who knows?

Trivia time!

Sometime ago I posted a message wondering how much fuel + ammo was needed to run the 3rd Inf Div.

Well, it appear that NBC nightly news has answered this question:

a half million gallons of fuel; and
5000 tons of ammuntion;...

PER DAY!

wow.

Colereux, don't misrepresent what I'm saying. If Al Qaeda comes to the aid of Iraq, then Al Qaeda is a de facto ally of Iraq.

Further misrepresentation of my words will lead to a lack of further response from me.

"I don't understand why the Iraqi's would do this."

In terms of morality, they're more than capable. Anybody remember the "War of the Cities?" During the Iraq/Iran war both sides lobbed big dumb missiles at each other's capitols. No tactical or strategic purpose, just mutual terrorism.

I'm not saying that's what we've got here. Just something to think about.

Just a thought. There was a report a while back of a missile landing in Turkey.

i think it was either this site or information clearinghouse that said 4 missles went of course into turkey, 3 in iran. the iran ones seem to be confusion though.

what i want to know is if these missles are so precise, how the heck do they miss an entire country

Andrew, I am not disagreeing with you about Iraqi missiles targetting civilian areas. I was referring to your assertion that Al Qaeda will be associated with Saddam if they attack American interests now - this is not necessarily a logical conclusion, and it could in fact be quite incorrect. Apparently Saddam and Al Qaeda have quite opposing positions on many issues - but they do share a distaste for America.

That report on the CNN site listing Coalition forces near Tikrit has got to be a typo. It says '...southern cities of Nasiriyah and Tikrit...' Tikrit's not southern.

forgot heard 1 misfired and almost hit ship that launched it, and 1 hit kuwait (this may be 2 now)

Thanks Hutch...

Well everyone I'm hanging up the thumb spurs for the night, but will keep a close eye on activity thanks to Mr. Kelley & the agonist. Hopefully everyone stays safe over the wkd, and hope to see you all in fine shape on Monday.

Take 'er easy, and may God bless us all...

That report on the CNN site listing Coalition forces near Tikrit has got to be a typo. It says '...southern cities of Nasiriyah and Tikrit...' Tikrit's not southern.

BTW Marines fly Harriers, not the airforce.

"what i want to know is if these missles are so precise, how the heck do they miss an entire country"

If something goes wrong with the guidance system then it can miss by huge margins since they are self propelled.

I see what look like missile parts with English letters and numerals.

Symbols:

Ah, that last picture was just right.

Nobody's listening.

Perfect.

"I don't understand why the Iraqi's would do this."

Well, we could give them more accurate missiles, and they'd aim them at purely military targets, if we agreed to make those locations available, too. :-)

They evidently regard this as a war of annihilation. I guess that "It's about the weapons of mass destruction/regime change/UN reputation/Liberation," argument just doesn't travel well. It's like what Wesley Clark said yesterday, "The enemy gets a vote." In this case, they get to decide what they're fighting for. Apparently, whatever it is exactly, is desperately important to some of them, and they'll fight with every method possible.

> Wrongbutton, there are no military targets in Kuwait City.

Kuwait City port is certainly a legitimate target, given that 90+% of logistics for the Anglo-American forces are moving through it.

The Sauds refused access to the much larger docks of their ports, that that is one of the underreported aspects of the logistic problem. Its not entirely clear that the Kuwaiti and Umm Qasr ports COULD support combat operations of the 6 divisions now planned for Iraq.

I'm talking about connected duplicity, not the Queda-Saddam connection

Huh??

If something goes wrong with the guidance system then it can miss by huge margins since they are self propelled.

makes sense, does anyone know the amount fired. we will never know the amount that failed and hit inside iraq, but will give us a rough start for fail ratio

Background on US / UK fight over controll of conquered territory:

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Gulf%2C+Middle+East+%26+Africa&month=March2003&file=World_News20030329258.xml

If Al Qaeda comes to the aid of Iraq, then Al Qaeda is a de facto ally of Iraq.

That isn't necessarily so.

If Al Queda and Iraq are not allies, if Al Queda really does hate Iraq for being a secular regime, and considering how Al Queda is despised by the western world at the moment, the best strategy in the world for Al Queda would be to come out and say "Hey! Iraq, Al Queda, We're BEST BUDDIES!!!!" Throws more fuel on the fire destabilizing the region and promoting massive conflict, US kicks the cr*p out of Iraq, and Osama sits back in a cave laughing his ass off as one enemy takes out another.

By bombing Iraq, the US may be playing into Osama's hand... which is why I ask people about the war:

"Which side are you on? Saddam's or Osama's?"

No wonder Canada's waffling.. Jeez.. ;)

qhate.com
this guy lives in kuwait, says it was a missle, this is his blog.

Hagen:
Don't be naive, Colereux. If Al Qaeda comes to the aid of Hussein, everyone will see that the two are tied together.

I see no support for this assertion. care to lay out your argument?

i assure you i do not consider myself naive; to the contrary i understand how complex the world is.

Wrongbutton, there are no military targets in Kuwait City. Yet, Iraq targets Kuwait City. The accuracy of their missiles is immaterial.

There are political targets near that shopping mall, particularly the British Embassy.

according to some eyewitness report the missile had come from the northwest. Still unconfirmed though

From Washington Post. Maybe much ado about nothing, or little.

KUWAIT, Saturday, March 29 - An explosion rocked a deserted shopping mall on the waterfront in the Kuwaiti capital early today, sending a huge plume of smoke towering into the night sky. Kuwaiti police officials on the scene said a missile that landed in the water nearby was to blame.

Witnesses who gathered shortly after the 1:45 a.m. explosion could see a twisted piece of metal on the esplanade near the shoreline about the size of a wastebasket and bearing the number "5420."

The mall, about a mile and quarter from the Al-Saif Palace of Kuwait's emir, had long been closed for the day, and there were no immediate signs of casualties. But the blast shattered windows, scattered ceiling tiles and ruptured water pipes in the mall, in the Souq Sharq district of central Kuwait.

Despite the signs that an Iraqi missile had struck the water near the rear entrance to the Sharq mall, by the al-Sharqia cinema, witnesses reported hearing no air-raid sirens before the blast that would have indicated an incoming missile.

Reports are missle came from NE - Basra area

since the missle obviously had english letters would it be safe to say it was one of ours. would not iraq use arabic.

If Al Queda and Iraq are not allies, if Al Queda really does hate Iraq for being a secular regime, and considering how Al Queda is despised by the western world at the moment, the best strategy in the world for Al Queda would be to come out and say "Hey! Iraq, Al Queda, We're BEST BUDDIES!!!!" Throws more fuel on the fire destabilizing the region and promoting massive conflict, US kicks the cr*p out of Iraq, and Osama sits back in a cave laughing his ass off as one enemy takes out another.

Just a hypothetical question: what does Al Qaeda have to gain and lose by being associated with Saddam?

Newsweek/MSNBC say the Halliburton deal is off.

The Kuwaiti blog was talking about the remains of an Iraqi missile that was shot down by a Patriot, which would account for the english numerals...

Let this play out and let's not jump to conclusions.

Comment on qHate.com suggests that english lettering on metal pieces found at the scene of the Kuwaiti Mall explotion may be fragments from a Patriot that hit the incoming weapon, since reports had it falling into the sea.

wrongbutton:

"Apparently Saddam and Al Qaeda have quite opposing positions on many issues"

Yeah, Al Qaeda wants to kill us for religious ambition and hatred, Saddam wants to kill for secular power reasons while espousing religious ambition and hatred. They may not be directly helping each other, but they are certainly allies. This does not prove Iraq caused Sept. 11, and I don't espouse that view. I do espouse the view that Iraq can be expected, in the future, to provide weapons for al Queda, and conversely that al Queda would attack the United States in defense of Iraq.

Certainly, their differences aren't as large as say, Russia and the United States in 1945. One capitalist and protective of religious freedom, the other communist and officially athiest. But the US and Russia did trade intelligence and even weaponry in their mutual quest to defeat Germany. Removing the who's right and wrong in this issue, America is at least as powerful compared to the combination of al Queda and Saddam as Germany was compared to the Allies. And they have MUCH more in common. So why is it again that they won't cooperate?

(Quick note: the WWII analogy is to say that United States is Germany in this example, not that Saddam is Hitler, and for stated limited purposes, I'm OK with that anology).

If something goes wrong with the guidance system

This is something the mass media has, in my opinion, tried to ignore, and this has led to a general belief that these weapons systems are infallible. Furthermore, the media's treatment of weapons capabilities has led to a belief that it is possible to hit a target without causing any collateral damage.

The Pentagon and DOD seem not to have made all that much of an effort to counter such faulty beliefs, for what reason I do not know. The beliefs are there, and the DOD and US media are responsible for it.

(freelixir, if you think I ever suggested civilian casualties as a legitimate moral objective of war, you disappoint me; I had thought you worth a lot more intellectual credibility than that.)

"I don't understand why the Iraqi's would do this."

I'm sure that a lot of what the Iraqis do will not be understood by you. Leave them to thier own culture.

"I'm sure that a lot of what the Iraqis do will not be understood by you. Leave them to thier own culture."

Why exactly do people insist on taking that quote alone? I very much qualified why I did not understand, not from a cultural standpoint but from a political/media standpoint.

"Yeah, Al Qaeda wants to kill us for religious ambition and hatred, Saddam wants to kill for secular power reasons while espousing religious ambition and hatred"

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they just want the US to get the hell out of thier countries?

Just a hypothetical question: what does Al Qaeda have to gain and lose by being associated with Saddam?

Middle East destabilization and the increase of "us versus them" mentality in Muslim minds. The "Final Jihad" between Muslims and everyone else that Osama is looking for.

Considering opinion polls, do you think the opinion of America in the Arab world will increase, even if Saddam is removed from power? I think Sean Paul had a map up in the annex about countries whose populations supported the war. In the middle east there was Israel and Kuwait. That's it. I would suspect support for the war has gone significantly down since hostilities began.

The greater danger is not from Saddam, but from tens of thousands of Saudi and Palistinean and Iranian and Jordanian and Syrian and Pakistani 10 year old kids watching Al Jazeera tonight and watching how the Americans are kicking the crap out of Muslims. After Saddam is gone and forgotten, these kids will still remember those images on TV.

Regarding "Pentagon keeps Iraqi War Dead from Media", I refer you to this article from the Pakistan Tribune earlier this week,
Bodies of 500 soldiers lying in Jacobabad. These are supposedly US/UK forces killed in Aghanistan (oh yah! Afghanistan!) in the past five months.

Since the beginning of the Afghani involvement, the number of dead US troops reported in the US press has been very different from that reported in the Asian and Russian papers. Now there seems to be questions concerning the actual number of mortal casualties. Danny Schecter has had several stories concerning unreported actions (unreported at least in the West) that have resulted in dozens of fatalities.

We can argue about whether the sources are credible. However, my question is how difficult would it be for the Pentagon to hide actual casualty numbers? How long could a serviceman be dead and not reported as such?

skimble, you need to take reading comprehension lessons. the billion-dollar deal with their subsidiary is most certainly not off -- however, they are no longer in the running for a DIFFERENT deal, yet to be awarded -- perhaps because that one is actually going through a formal bidding process.

rebuilding postwar Iraq is a big trough for certain indistries; one little piggy has been shut out of a certain portion of the feed, no more.

cnn is saying that it was an iraqi missle, patriot intercepted, a10 then destroyed launcher

They may not be directly helping each other, but they are certainly allies.

Michael, I understand your perspective. I guess my question then is: what is an ally?

In spite of my devil's advocation, I do realize that a significant proportion of Westerners believe Al Q. and Saddam to be allied, although there is no actual proof. I guess the two are "close enough" to be lumped together.

I can't recall the source, but I remember reading that currently over 50% of Americans now cite Saddam Hussein as the direct progenitor of the 9/11 attack. If that's true, I find it shocking. On the other hand, perhaps the foregone "conclusion" that it was really Osama's doing should be questioned as well.

Tikrit is north of Bdad, not south. No way.

Oh, you mean the culture that executes those for speaking out for their beliefs...or wait how about the culture that gasses their own people...better yet, how about the culture that had free elections, but no opposing candidate and 100% of the vote goes to Hussein, because if I don't vote for him members of my family get beaten...

C'mon m.a., get off of your high horse and come into the real world. The question of "I don't know why the Iraqis would do this?" Was meant to be a strategic question of them hitting a civilian target as it would be a blow to them on the psychological part of the war.

Why jump to the race card, and say "leave them and their culture alone" it has nothing to do with cultural bias, and more about war strategy.

Why do you and others like you insist that everything that comes out of America and the government is out of hatred.

Give me a greak.

Symbols:

Now I can finally sit back and enjoy the show.

Dr. Strangelove, or
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
http://www.filmsite.org/drst.html

Some interesting information about the precision of Tomahawk missiles here. One quote: "They fly in horizontally at several hundred miles an hour. If they fail to explode at the exact microsecond, they will miss their target by hundreds of meters."

Don't know how reliable the source is, though.

skimble... we have seen that news. I THINK that Kellogg Brown and Root (Haliburton) has already been awarded a $1 Billion contract for oil field services and fire fighting. The contract referred to in the MSNBC article is a $600 Million contract for general reconstruction. The government has short-listed two US contractors for the rebuilding contract not including Haliburton. I have been asking the well informed here on this site to confirm my interpretation. So far nothing.

raven:

The point was that I wasn't mentioning Saddam right before Sept. 11 to imply a connection. I was noting that a lot of West, to say nothing of the Middle East, repeatedly doesn't like it when Arabs kill people, but also can't be bothered to protest or actually do anything about it the way they can when America kills people (for a large percentage, even in the case of clear self-defense as in Afganistan). The "connected duplicity" is that they are equally willing to abide American or Arab deaths with little notice, as long as America didn't cause them (or even better, to figure out a way to blame America anyway).

Trevor, ok - that's how Al Qaeda can benefit from the association. Now, what do they have to lose? For example, do you think they lose some validity in the Muslim world for being associated with a secular regime?

"The greater danger is not from Saddam, but from tens of thousands of Saudi and Palistinean and Iranian and Jordanian and Syrian and Pakistani 10 year old kids watching Al Jazeera tonight and watching how the Americans are kicking the crap out of Muslims."

tens of thousands is quite conservative

They evidently regard this as a war of annihilation.

Correction: The Iraqi Baathists evidently regard this as a war of annihilation.

It is, however, not one. The coalition only wants to change the regime. Afterwards, there will be criminal trials for some, but not all, Baathists, because of the horrendous crimes that they are accused of. Evidently, they have decided that they will be convicted, because many of them continue to fight to the death and are not even seeking to constrain themselves by the most basic principles of humanity, but instead are committing shocking atrocities before the eyes of the world.

m.a. how about a response on my last posting...

Still waiting...

I can't recall the source, but I remember reading that currently over 50% of Americans now cite Saddam Hussein as the direct progenitor of the 9/11 attack. If that's true, I find it shocking. On the other hand, perhaps the foregone "conclusion" that it was really Osama's doing should be questioned as well.

Actually, the statistic was that most (>50%)Americans believe that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi.

Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

It's the magic of "say it three times and it's true". Go pick up a copy of Orwell's 1984 and read it again...

For the record, none of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi. Most of them were Saudi.

halifax:

i'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.
your post has nothing I can respond to as you simply do not know me.

For the record I was in college when Hussein raped the shia. I was horrified and enraged that having encouraged them to rise up the US admin. of that time let them be slaughtered.

As to the rest of your attack on my supposed positions you have invented, get real.

"7:09 EST According to NPR US forces killed a UK soldier in a friendly fire incident."

It has to be getting fairly near to the point when the Brits will no longer allow themselves to be put *ahead* of the American troops. This whole adventure has been devastating to the reputation of U.S. soldiers... They all look frightened out of their wits and this constant stream of dead friendlies resulting from an overly-nervous "shoot first, ask questions later" reaction gives lie to their on camera bravura.

Is anyone out there old enough to remember the ultra-polite cartoon characters, Chip and Dale? ("You go first" "No, you go first, I insist" "No, no, I couldn't...you go first" "No, I really must insist that you go first"). Well, that will be the U.K. forces talking to U.S. forces as they try to advance into Basra.

Not news exactly but at the top of my freebie opera browser there is now an ad for emergency products, lights, sirens, gear, protective suits, is usually one for dating or credit or opera itself up there?? Wanna buy stock in the plastic sheeting/duct tape/gas mask industry??
I still have a sense of humor when ya lose it you might as well hang it up.
They're coming to take me away ha ha ho ho he he.

they are now showing the piece with the english lettering and saying this is proof of it being a silkworm.

ok a silkworm is chinese and use heirglyphs, iraq uses arabic. so the question stands, would they use english on thier rockets?

Just in change from war lite to war heavy
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=391833
I dont think the dead and injuered will notice anything different

Patriot + Iraqi missle = some Patriot debris.

Trevor, ok - that's how Al Qaeda can benefit from the association. Now, what do they have to lose? For example, do you think they lose some validity in the Muslim world for being associated with a secular regime?

Ahh.. here's the magic...

Osama's statement that came out.. ohh.. 5 weeks ago?.. was in support of the PEOPLE of Iraq. He even called Saddam an infidel in that speech, but called upon the Muslim world to defend the nation of Iraq from "American crusaders".

The next day, both Colin Powell and Ari Fleisher were jumping on this saying it was proof of an Iraqi - Al Queda connection. If I recall Ari correctly, he said "If this isn't a connection between Saddam and Al Queda, I don't know what is."

They bit that hook rather deeply.

Actually I think that the US would have had more support for the war if they'd played only the humanitarian and WMD cards. Everyone supports a humanitarian cause, and WMD is enough to push it over the top. Probably about 6-10 weeks of more US intelligence probably would have been sufficient. But playing this Saddam=Al Queda button like a broken record just didn't sell, it made things worse.

Patriot + Iraqi missle = some Patriot debris.

i can easily buy that, but they showed the exact piece with lettering and saying that it was from a silkworm. so obviously to the military guy that piece was not from a patriot

Didn't see the report, but it wouldn't surprise me that someone in the military wouldn't know a Patriot from a Silkworm.

Unless he was an officer...but who knows.

m.a. - still waiting.

Is anyone out there old enough to remember the ultra-polite cartoon characters, Chip and Dale? ("You go first" "No, you go first, I insist" "No, no, I couldn't...you go first" "No, I really must insist that you go first"). Well, that will be the U.K. forces talking to U.S. forces as they try to advance into Basra.

British commander: You go first.
American commander: I'm not gonna go first. You go first.
(Both turn and look at the Polish GROM commander)

tens of thousands is quite conservative

Yes... I was going to put "millions", but I'm not how many 10 year old Saudi kids have television. No doubt they'll hear about it.

Let's say there's probably about 10,000 kids this age that are very, very willing to be the next terrorist.

An even worse mindset though is the American public who believe that nothing they can do can make the situation any better. "They'll hate us no matter what". To those people, I'd say: "Take some time, ask around, do research, and try to figure out why these people are so angry at America. Listen to them for a while. Not to the governents or ambassadors, listen to the people. You'll learn a lot."

how do i learn to do italics in posts
only been posting 3 days
thanks G

Didn't see the report, but it wouldn't surprise me that someone in the military wouldn't know a Patriot from a Silkworm.

Unless he was an officer...but who knows.

no he was just a military analyst. i would presume english letters would be on other countries missles since english is the international language. but, i would just like to confirm that

They bit that hook rather deeply.

Well, tantalizing bait, surely!

I remember reading a statistic about the number of times Dubya said the name "Saddam Hussein" in public between summer 2002 and February 2003 - a large number. And number of times he said the name "Osama bin Laden" in public: zero. I wish I could remember the source - I think it might have been Guardian.

how do i learn to do italics in posts
only been posting 3 days
thanks G

it is just html

do _ to start italics _ to end italics

minus the underscores of course

for bold replace the i with b

"Patriot + Iraqi missle = some Patriot debris."

Interesting assumption. You'll have to explain the physics of this to me: The Patriots as set up as interceptors, that is, *between the launch point and the target*. What strange new force allows the Patriot debris to be stopped in mid-air, turned around, then proceed on the arc of its target?

I must have missed that class when they explained it. Run it by me, will you?

m. a. battilana asked:

>>Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they just want the US to get the hell out of thier countries?<<

No, it never did occur to me. It does not occur to me. They certainly wanted us to come to their country to develop their oil fields, to buy their oil, to sell them goods, to give them aid, to trade technology with them. Should we have done none of that (not rhetorical, you may answer)? Maybe, but every nation had the power to refuse all of those things and did not. They would not, and no, with the exception of a very small fringe, they don't want us to stop now. Many would complain that their poverty was our fault if we had refused or started to refuse now (see the Iraq embargo).

It certainly made some of them mad when we defended Kuwait (though not even the most fanatical Kuwaitis that oppose this war complained much then). The Kuwait war was bin Laden's stated reason for opposing us. I suppose we could have not done that; is that what you would have preferred (again, not rhetorical)? It certainly makes some of them mad that we refuse to let them destroy Israel. I suppose we could let them do that. Do you favor the destruction of Israel (not rhetorical)?

So a more precise question is "Did it ever occur to you that perhaps they just want the US to give them lots of money and help them destroy Israel?" That did occur to me, at least as applied to some segment of the population. I'll admit to not being comfortable stereotyping the view of an entire region as one monolithic entity the way you did.

Interesting assumption. You'll have to explain the physics of this to me: The Patriots as set up as interceptors, that is, *between the launch point and the target*. What strange new force allows the Patriot debris to be stopped in mid-air, turned around, then proceed on the arc of its target?

I must have missed that class when they explained it. Run it by me, will you?

i thought the same thing initially, but then i thought that the missle may have been behind the launcher. this way the patriot and the missle would be very close to the same arc (trying to catch missle from behind). when hit, the debris would be in same or very close flight path

Well, gee Physics says that if an Iraqi missile traveling south is at a greater speed than a Patriot heading North...the object heading south would send debris south.

If you read the reports it is now being said that other missile debris believed to be Iraqi was found near the waterfront, and no one is reporting that the missile scored a direct hit on the mall...

As a matter of fact most eye-witnesses are saying something fell out of the sky...

Again, don't jump to conclusions...

What strange new force allows the Patriot debris to be stopped in mid-air, turned around, then proceed on the arc of its target?

The same mysterious force that caused one bullet to put two holes in JFK and one in Connally? ;)

Again, jim k, don't let yor politics cloud reality.

Try being a moderate, it clears the clouds up, oh so much...not everything is a conspiracy...and not everything is to be believed by this administration...the truth more times than not lies somewhere in the middle...and usually the truth is there as well.

i think the patriot and the missle must have been traveling the same direction if debris was found. both the missles must have been flying south for both debris to be found. no other way that i can think of it to happen

Trevor said":

>>Actually, the statistic was that most (>50%)Americans believe that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi.50% believe at least "some" of the hijackers is Iraqi. Only 21% said most.

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2003_01_12_atrios_archive.html#90185562

Of course, only 18% of those in Muslim countries think that ANY Arabs carried out September 11. So it seems some countries' populations are more confused than others.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,659181,00.html

Of course, only 18% of those in Muslim countries think that ANY Arabs carried out September 11. So it seems some countries' populations are more confused than others.

Michael, that's a great statistic; it's always important to consider as many perspectives as possible ...

"My bad." I stand corrected on the Halliburton deal. Apologies.

re the "Muslim countries/September 11" poll, that was from over a year ago. Things have probably shifted some since then.

I'm not so sure that both would have had to have been traveling South...it would depend where the Patriot Missile battery was stationed...from what I understand they are all around the city...and, yes, those are viable military targets for the Iraqis...and if they are hit civilians would get hurt...is this the USs fault for stationing them near civilians?

Just curious as the answer yes, leaves a nice follow-up question.

"Again, jim k, don't let yor politics cloud reality.

Try being a moderate, it clears the clouds up, oh so much...not everything is a conspiracy...and not everything is to be believed by this administration...the truth more times than not lies somewhere in the middle...and usually the truth is there as well."

What a delightfully strange posting RL.

You seemed to have missed the fact that I'm not presenting a political arguement here, nor smelling a whiff of conspiracy. At issue is the credibility of the media, to which your words to me might be more aptly aimed.

With each new "event" in this war, were presented with an interpretation that invariably ends up trying to smear the Iraqis and gain some meager moral foothold for the U.S. A great deal of this is due to the "in-bedded" reporters that, due to the danger they're in, end up being cheerleaders for the soldiers that are protecting them.

It is just as likely that Kuwait was hit by a malfunctioning Patriot as it was by an Iraqi missile but its difficult to find the truth when our own media goes to such length to obscure it.

I'm glad to see the people in this thread who are supporting my isolationist views.

I agree, we should stop funding Israel, they are big boys and can take care of themselves. If the Evil Arabs try and take Israel away we can take them in.

No more American soldiers in foreign lands.

Republic, NOT EMPIRE

Jim,

Didn't realize that was you...I apologize...

I'm just getting fed up with all of the react first to news by concluding that the US is at fault...

Again, I responded to the whole physics thing, and realized I 've been on here way too long today...

I'm sure I'll talk to you offline soon.

Have a good night...may peace prevail, but unfortunately it looks like this is going to be a long campaign, and I don't just mean Iraq.

CNN's hired retired states he's certain the missile parts are from a Silkworm; Chinese characters on a piece of circuit board found at the scene seem to support that theory.

This is the first I've heard of Iraq having Silkworms, although I know Iran has them. North Korea was taken to task several years ago for funneling them from China to Iran. It's not inconceivable, assuming this was a Silkworm, that it was launched from Iran. The Silkworm has a range of about 60 miles. Basra is about 100 miles north of Kuwait City. Iran is, at one point, only about 50-60 miles from Kuwait City.

Is there any correlation between the end of the Muslim holy day and increased agitation? If I recall, there were particularly strong protests and civilian activity last Friday too.

Ummm, yeah: the vile ummahs of the cult of Islam preach hatred and murder in the mosques each and every Friday and send their flock out intent on killing all of the infidels (that's you and me). That probably has something to do with "increased agitation".

An even worse mindset though is the American public who believe that nothing they can do can make the situation any better. "They'll hate us no matter what". To those people, I'd say: "Take some time, ask around, do research, and try to figure out why these people are so angry at America. Listen to them for a while. Not to the governents or ambassadors, listen to the people. You'll learn a lot."

Yes, you'll learn that there are too many of them (it only takes 19 or so) that want to kill any non-Muslims no matter WHAT we do, no matter HOW we appease them...short of trashing our Constitution and turning America into a shia religious state. No thanks.

Comment on qHate.com suggests that english lettering on metal pieces found at the scene of the Kuwaiti Mall explotion may be fragments from a Patriot that hit the incoming weapon, since reports had it falling into the sea.

If there was an explosion, then it wasn't a fragment coming in, but a live missile.

short of trashing our Constitution and turning America into a shia religious state.

It might be as simple as eliminating the US military presence in their Holy Land.

short of trashing our Constitution and turning America into a shia religious state.

It might be as simple as eliminating the US military presence in their Holy Land.

As if Muslims only started murdering us after 1991? Hint: Munich, 1972.

Take it to LGF Harden. We don't need your bigotry here.

I got another look at the writing on that missile piece. It says "Place Protractor Here". Aiming instructions in English.

Mark Harden--

As if Muslims only started murdering us after 1991? Hint: Munich, 1972.

That was the Israeli Olympic team.
And guess what: The still unresolved Palestine-Israel situation is to blame.

nameless--

Take it to LGF Harden. We don't need your bigotry here.

I tend to agree.

There has been a general US presence in Saudi since 1933. Do you know what happened in 1933? Saudi granted an oil concession to Standard Oil of California. Commercial quantities of oil were discovered near Dharhan in 1938. We started building military installations there less than 10 years later. There has been a US military presence in Saudi Arabia since we started construction on Dhahran Air Base in 1947.

History didn't start with Operation Desert Storm.

someone had better get CNN a map of Iraq. Tikrit is 100 miles north of Baghdad not in southern Iraq.

someone had better get CNN a map of Iraq. Tikrit is 100 miles north of Baghdad not in southern Iraq.

CNN is geographically clueless, it just hurts.
Has happened before on a larger scale:
http://vowe.de/download/WhereIsSwitzerland.jpg

An RAF spokesman has just said that he thinks the missile was a 'Seersucker' land to ship missile, fired from a mobile launcher on the al Faw peninsular.
Kuwaitis are concerned because this type of missile travels too low to be picked up by the Patriot system.

Alternatively, Kuwaiti officials are saying that the debris found had US markings on it. US military are investigating.

What describes a Bad civilian and what a Good one!!!?

With all these Stray missiles its mostly innocent humans that die and mostly children that are more vulnerable.

Lets Pray that they wont be any more stray missiles, as we will not know where they will end-up! So far they've been straying for areas around the battles. Who can guarantee that they will not end-up in Other parts of the World!???
All in All it seems that they are not as Intelligent as they are described!

Alternatively, Kuwaiti officials are saying that the debris found had US markings on it.

I didn't see any distinctive "US" markings on any of the debris I saw on Abu Dhabi TV's live footage, but there were unmistakeable English words on one large piece that read
"PLACE PROTRACTOR HERE". A protractor would be used to set the missile at the proper angle to produce a desired trajectory. Aiming instructions.

US military are investigating.

Great. The Dallas Police are on the scene. ;)

That was the Israeli Olympic team.

All infidels are the same to Islamists. But you may be right, they hate the Jews even mor than they hate us.

And guess what: The still unresolved Palestine-Israel situation is to blame.

Rather than the terrorists who murdered the athletes, eh?

Take it to LGF Harden. We don't need your bigotry here.

Your dhimmitude is nearly complete. Submit to Allah!