Well...sounds like this is the Beginning of End of the Beginning....Great site by the way, first time reader and I've been glued to it for 2 days now. I just have a bad feeling about all of this. If India & Pakistan get going, I have a feeling it will start a chain reaction with North Korea, China...the Arab League???

Ouch Time.

May we all be together still at the end of this day.

is anyone else feeling a little fear about how our country is being controlled by such arrogant,brutal,power hungry,self rightous,war mongering men?????...does anyone feel the world is becoming a safer place because of their actions??..my son is over there with the 101st...GOD help us all

Vis a vis Pakistan and India, I reread Rudyard Kipling's 'Kim' a short while ago, and while the story takes place in Northern India over one hundred years ago, the insights into the people, their religions and culture, provides a good background for the conflict soon to ensue.

What sounds like air raid sirens over Baghdad in MSNBC camera. Have been periodic rumbles since sundown. Any idea?

Repost: World domination plan of Bush and the neo-cons well laid out. A must read.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html

WOW..300 miles in a week...we've protected israel....protected the oil....not too many people dead.....i feel all better now....let's all sing"i'm proud to a american....i'm f#@$ing seething..and scared

yeah and what will happen if the rest of the "axis of evil" needs a little spanking, too? like sudan, north-korea, germany or france.... UNO won`t do anything against it, right?

I personally think that we are investing in our future as a nation to make it safer.. There are times when dealing with problems while they are smaller is better. IE Iraq, if allowed to advance they may be able to use/sell items that might hurt/kill Americans.. (I don't think Iraq is the only threat)..

I thank God for your son Tom..

I wonder if the 'young iraqi men' who hijacked the aid convoy were what they purported to be. Or is the humanitarian aid now in the hands of the Iraqi forces?

The much heralded operation to distribute humanitarian aid to the people of the Iraqi border town of Safwan on Wednesday has been a "disaster", according to the vice chairman of the Kuwaiti Red Crescent.

Dr Hilal Al-Sayer told BBC News Online that the tens of thousands of prepared meals and ration kits of rice, oil, sugar and cereals destined for farms just north of the Iraqi border, had instead been hijacked soon after leaving Kuwait.

Mr Al-Sayer says British troops advised staff from the Red Crescent (the local equivalent of the Red Cross) to abandon almost all their lorries to the crowd, since it was considered too dangerous to intervene to save the estimated 45,000 meal packs.

Jeez. And just yesterday some fool posted something on an earlier thread about how well the relief efforts were going . . .

Give it time guys, IMO. When Saddam is gone and the Iraqi's finally realize their freedom, hopefully then we'll see that it was all worthwhile....

Charles:

Then, shouldn't have North Korea been first?

Not that I want that...I'm about 60 miles south of the DMZ right now....

Who am I to argue of where to start.. Have to say this though -- you have to start somewhere..

some of my friends were saying we (using that word loosely) bombed a shopping mall in iraq, but i haven't seen anything on here about it. anyone have any info on this?

start what charles?

Regarding the humanitarian situation, I really do not see why on earth the supplies have to go through Um Qasr (mines, etc), instead of sidestepping a few miles through Kuweit. Anyone have a good explanation?

http://www.aljazeera.net/

They got a new ISP. And they also got hacked. Friend of mine says they actually got hit at the dns level, don't quote me on the how though.

Charlie,

I can certainly see where you are coming from, and there is a part of me that wants to agree with you.

But I keep thinking that if our solution to weapons proliferation is to stage a massive invasion of an entire country, well, we will be at war constantly for the foreseeable future. If WMD is really why we need to go into Irag, shouldn't Iran be next? Then North Korea? And then Syria? What about Libya and Cuba? And what if Islamic fundmentalists continue their electoral gains in Pakistan, where there is a verified nuclear program? What about the fact that China and Russia export weapons technologies to regiemes we do not approve of?

It seems to me that unilateral, preemptive invasion is not a viable solution to weapons proliferation. Since the end of the last Gulf War, Saddam has not invaded anyone, and he has not gassed anyone. This time period coincides with the use of UN inspectors in Iraq. A significant portion of his WMD were destroyed from 1991 to 1998, and the new inspections regieme was at the very least preventing him from moving forward with his programs.

I agree Saddam is a terrible dictator, but again if being a brutal dictator justifies a unilateral invasion, we are back to the long list of countries we will have to invade in the future. I just have got to think that containment is a better solution to weapons proliferation than unilateral invasion.

Peter

Almost 86 years ago to the day, the British commander Lieutenant General Stanley Maude issued a proclamation to the people of Baghdad, whose city his forces had just occupied. "Our armies," he declared, "do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors, but as liberators." Within three years, 10,000 had died in a national Iraqi uprising against the British rulers, who gassed and bombed the insurgents. On the eve of last week's invasion Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins echoed Maude in a speech to British troops. "We go to liberate, not to conquer", he told them. All the signs from the past few days are that a new colonial occupation of Iraq - however it is dressed up - will face determined guerrilla resistance long after Saddam Hussein has gone; and that the occupiers will once again be driven out.

- The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,922710,00.html

Perhaps the US Diplomat will stay in Mongolia after her resignation....

at the dns level????

ouch.

The Times is reporting that the "Situation in Basra Remains 'Difficult and Confused'." The Guardian, meanwhile, reports that "Jubilation Turns to Hate as Aid Arrives." From the first paragraph:

"The young man wearing the brown shawl summed it up succinctly: "We want you to go back home. We do not want your American and British aid," he said, his eyes flashing with anger. "

By the way, a pre-war leaked U.N. report stated that Iraq would be a humanitarian disaster with over 1 million children killed. Pro-war types refuted the estimated by arguing that allied bombing would not leave Iraqi cities would be without runnign water or electricity as the report assumed. Looks like the U.N. was right - despite U.S. precision bombing, Basra is still without water or electricity.

Yeah but really everybody...I totally agree that this has to be done, but now that the Syrians are saying that the Arab League should get involved to protect Iraq, and the latest UN statement against the coalition forces, with India & Pakistan & N. Korea, on high tensions...maybe it's time to tuck tail & run.

The aid story is playing differently on NPR. They are saying that the trucks were supposed to go to the port city, but only got as far as Safwan.

The people there took everything they could because they believed these were the ONLY aid trucks coming, according to their reporter.

There was no indication that this convoy was being hijacked by forces backing Hussein.

Mongolia would actually be a fun place. Great hiking and climbing. Fishing for the 15(?) foot trout, or going hunting with Falcons. Wonderful place for horse back riding.

Wounded Marines in Germany meet the press (link will open in new window). Here's the operative quote:

Menard said nothing really prepares you for the reality of combat. He also said they had been told to expect little or no resistance.

"We were told when we were going through Nasiriya we would see little to no resistance," Menard said. "They weren't rolling over like we thought they would."

It's clear that our solders have been lied to. It's clear that the citizens of our nation have been lied to. When and how are we going to hold the people responsible for these lies to account?

Charles...
I am in no way attempting to be belligerent, just trying to understand peoples concepts of this situation. Given Peter's excellent post above, are you saying you feel comfortable with continuing a string of conflicts/wars to 'clean up' the rest of the world and do you truly believe it is possible to force all other nations to accept our political ideals. Truly, I am just curious. Thank you.

The Mongolia Diplomat story broke last week in the WaPost, but was buried due to War news.

All the signs from the past few days are that a new colonial occupation of Iraq - however it is dressed up - will face determined guerrilla resistance long after Saddam Hussein has gone; and that the occupiers will once again be driven out.

I don't know how you can take the actions of the Fedayeen thus far as proof that there is some popular mass resistance to overthrowing Saddam. We should all know what the Fedayeen are like, what they are doing to the civilian population, and how hated they are. But this is from The Guardian, so shouldn't be all that surprised I suppose.

Reading the UPI bullitin on the press briefing in Baghdad and remembering what one NRP reporter said - roughly that beyond the weird flourishes that the information was credible.

Re: aljazeera.net

They went down hours after launching their english-language version (link will open in new window). If the NSA isn't involved, I'd be surprised. Information warfare is their specialty.

Thank you Peter...and John..

I have not read other posts yet so I do not know if this old news. Al. Jaz. is showing burned hum. and helicopter in Middle Euphrates.

Tom,
I understand your worry. As the father of two young boys I totally understand your nervousness. That being said, I do feel much safer with a proactive foreign policy. I work a mere twenty blocks north of ground zero, and often wonder if I'd be alive if they chose to set of a dirty bomb instead of flying planes into the buildings. History shows the best defense to be peace through stregnth.
JR

Re the Wash Post story on "the war could take months"; I heard this briefly alluded to on NPR this morning. The fact is that now there will be serious revisionism as people claim that "nobody said" the war would be over with quickly. There is a psychological effect at work here where people really believe that they believed something other than they believed.

Josh:

Do you really think that the soldiers were intentionally lied to? I think a lot of people in command positions truly thought that they would by-pass the smaller cities and that the coalition would have little resistance.

Via Hesiod, an interview with retired AF General McPeak:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1048770098290210.xml

Rima,
"hum." human or humvee?

What, if any, comment or coverage did al-Jaz give to Coalition suggestion that damage to Shaab market was by Iraqi AA missile?

Sean Paul:

Artillery exchange across the cease fire line between India and Pakistan is not news. It happens from time to tome during times of increased tension - which in recent times has been whenever the weather gets better for things to get dangerous ...

I wish I could say that I am kidding. But I am not.

Thank you for maintaining this site ...

I'm so glad my girlfriend works nights and my kids are old enough to forage in the fridge for leftovers and frozen burritos, or I'd never have a chance to get caught up on the info here (it takes me a bit longer than 30 minutes a day to do my day job ;)

Thanks, S-P... keep up the good work.

Yeah I think they were "lied" to. I think the US had absolutely NO idea how the Iraqi regime would react when backed into a corner. I'm not surprised by the reactions of the Iraqis. I don't think the US Command meant to "lie" but I don't think they expected much if any resistance. Same old garbage. Problem is the West doesn't know War. Iraqi's have been bred by war.

The Taliban were not a popular movement by the time of the fall, and even their power base was not wild about them. Yet they've managed to hold on, doing sometimes daily bombings on civilian and military targets. Granted they have the benefit of far more rugged terrain but I have serious doubts the Fedayeen will disappear after the fall of Saddam. More likely they will continue to inflict painful and frequent attacks on Coalition forces.

Russian wept, hysterically, when Stalin died. Is this too different?

Yeah I think they were "lied" to. I think the US had absolutely NO idea how the Iraqi regime would react when backed into a corner. I'm not surprised by the reactions of the Iraqis. I don't think the US Command meant to "lie" but I don't think they expected much if any resistance. Same old garbage. Problem is the West doesn't know War. Iraqi's have been bred by war.

It is not my opinion that this is required reading:

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=391165

That this was an american or british jet is uncontested

Any aliens out there?

Any aliens out there?

About that aid disaster--I looked at the raw film and saw a couple of things. Guys on the trucks were tossing packets to others in the crowd. With the water truck, young fellow took a water container from a woman wearing the veil and got the water for her.

Could it be that there was no system in place for distribution? Could it be that little old ladies in burkas couldn't actually elbow their way onto a truck but might send their sons to bring home some food?

People do weird things when they are hungry--or scared--or clueless about "the big picture." We've seen this same chaotic scene in other countries when aid has been delayed, there is an inadequate distribution system, and there is no way to enforce it. The BBC report says that the agencies called it a "free for all" even though the BBC headline called it a "hijacking." Two very different things in my mind.

Would it be so strange to contemplate that perhaps the destruction on 9/11 was one of history's incredibly lucky shots, that the terrorists suceeded far beyond their wildest dreams in making a big strike, and that they really don't have the ability or immediate plans to follow up in a similarly grand fashion?

Being someone who rides the bus to work every morning, I really question why there's all this, frankly, self-aggrandizing emphasis on the Big Chemical Attack or the Big Nuclear Attack as the likely next terrorist strike. How about a simple bus bomb? Works in Haifa. I don't see any info on ready.gov about how to survive a suicide bomber on a bus. I guess us poor peons who take buses to work in the morning should just bend down and kiss our butts goodbye? I'm just so tired of all this "chemical attack - anthrax - dirty bomb!!!!" hysteria going on. When the reality is that conventional explosives and guns are just as easily available to the average terrorist (or terrorist sympathizer) and easy to use.

I was just watching Tony Blair and George Bush's speech on CNN.

So, the "President" is a fool, an outright uncouth moron when juxtaposed next to the intelligent, eloquent British Prime Minister. However, even Mr. Blair's silver-gilded politician's tongue is beginning to spout lies.

Could just one reporter turn to Tony Blair after he says 400,000 children have died in the past five years due to the nature of the regime in Baghdad and ask him why two directors of the humanitarian UN mission to Iraq (i.e. Oil for Food program) resigned in protest of the effect the sanctions have had on the civilian population?

Saddam Hussein is atrocious, but you cannot conscionably spin the atrocities of the British and United States administrations for political gains.

We in the US are entering perhaps the most dangerous period in our history. By invading Iraq, we have irrevocably crossed a bridge that will take us into one of the most grim, violent and ultimately humiliating eras our country has ever known. A small group of brutal and deluded men, with no respect for the best of this country, have taken over and are determined to pursue a self destructive course. Are the American people ready for the horrors that will unfold? I live in New York and I'm bracing myself.

I wish only the best to the poor bastards who've been sent to do the dirty work of men like Cheney and Bush who have never sacrificed for anyone. Those soldiers have my full support and I hope for a quick war but I know it is unlikely. I know this will become incredibly gruesome and we will see images and read accounts that will make us sick. We may experience this first hand in our cities.

I know it's hard to believe for most of the world but Most Americans have absolutely no interest in the world conquest advocated by neocons like Wolfowitz and Cheney.

They have destabilized the world. The tectonic plates are moving -- in India and Pakistan, in Korea and in Taiwan. Knowing that despite the rhetoric, we can not fight two major wars simultaneously, Kim Jong Il may make his move. If he goes over the border into the South, what will we do? If the Chinese decide this is the moment to move on Taiwan, what will we do? Artillery exchanges between India and Pakistan. A nuclear exchange is closer than it has been since the late 50s.

If we are the self appointed policeman of the world, what happens when our back is turned?

The Russians are making their move -- supporting the Saddam regime with technology and intelligence to show us that they have options and can't be bitch slapped without pay back.

How do we put this Genie back in the bottle?
November of 2004 is the only exit. Forget any candidate who wants to stay on this path of madness. Be pragmatic and avoid ideologues like Nader who cannot win. Take us off this expressway to ruin.

From an earlier thread ... I wanted to get a wide variety of reactions to this and so put it on the "Active" thread.

The goal of this is liberation, correct?

It seems the chances of securing Baghdad and getting Saddam are miniscule before summer sets in and makes manoeuvre and supply difficult. The quick strike at the head is likely to fail.

Why not declare a Free Iraq (call it the Federal Republic of Iraq) with a provisional government?

Free Iraq would consist of current Kurdistan (and possibly one of Mosul/Kirkuk), the southeastern part of Iraq (includes Basra and possibly an-Nasiriya) and the western part of Iraq (essentially ar-Rutbah).

Aid would be shipped in, and the area would be secured from Saddamite infiltration.

Kurdish and Shi'ite militias would form the core of the Free Iraqi army, which would schedule elections at the municipal, regional and provisional federal levels.

The Free Iraqi army and US/British forces would patrol Free Iraq, and there'd be plenty of room for positive-PR things such as Iraqis receiving aid, voting, etc.

US/British forces could either (1) expand Free Iraq, moving cautiously up the Tigris and Euphrates and/or (2) protect refugees trying to leave Saddamite Iraq and enter Free Iraq (and consequently destroying RG units which come out into the open).

Set up Free Iraq and encourage the citizens of Saddamite Iraq to revolt in a timely fashion.

Except this time, we'd back them and not leave Saddam in place to placate some phony god of "stability".

With a *concrete*, *IRAQI* alternative to Saddam Hussein, Iraqis would have something to rally around other than vague promises from people who have already broken their promises.

Free Iraq can then determine its own path. There would be plenty of money for Free Iraq, as Free Iraq would likely contain most of the oil fields and Iraq's only ports. Saddamite Iraq would be a rump state, unstable to the core, defeated, and knowing it.

Aid could flow into Iraq. Saddamite Iraq would of course receive humanitarian aid shipments.

In the fall, when the weather permits manoeuvre, US, British and Free Iraqi forces can then advance up the Tigris/Euphrates, liberating cities.

What think ye?

Rima,
"hum." human or humvee?
Sorry, Humvee. From what I can tell, Al Jaz has said that there is talk that this was insided job, denied by the Iraqi's and definalty disbeleived by the people there. I am just starting to watch now, so I will keep watch for it.

I don't believe soldiers were lied to. What we're talking about is a pall of dishonesty that's descended over Washington, and over the rest of the country. It's not so much about lies told to others, but rather lies told to ourselves.

A pre-emptive war in this case does not necessarily necessitate a war in all other instances. The pre-war argument against war was that the inspections were beginning to work.

After 12 years of the inspections not working it appears that the reason they started appearing to work was because of a massive build up of troops on Iraqi borders.

With this war, as a leader of a country, I would take seriously a US threat to stand down. Without this war, US influence would go the way of UN influence. Will anyone take a recommendation to change from France? That doesn't mean we will never have to fight again.

I am surprised by so many confident predictions of the future both near and far. The world order is changing to fast to make apocalyptic or utopian predictions at this point.

shawn, i like. itll never happen, but i like it

Cheers to the "Free Iraqi" army

A comment to samsa67:

I agree with your analysis, however, your statement that the "Russians are making their move" I believe is incorrect. This accusation was brought up several months ago, at that point proved to be false, and then paraded out here again. It is quite plausible that Iraq purchased these weapons from a third-party that purchased them directly from the Russian company. In fact, this is what the company did and has been asserting.

Anyone interested in hearing Dennis Halliday's (the first of two Oil for Food directors who resigned in protest) comments on the failure of sanctions on Iraq go to:
http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/ramfiles/ar_impactofsanctions.ram

well said kcar!

Shawn, good idea. But the fact that the U.S. war plans do not appear to have ever included this option, doesn't make me optimistic that we could still do that and get out with our international prestige intact. The damage has been done.

Of course, the Sojourners "Six-Point Plan" to avoid war also included a plan to isolate and de-legitimize Hussein by having him declared a war criminal.

Another US diplomat resigns in protest to the war.

Background:

Voting with their feet.

Yahoo! News
U.S. Mongolian Diplomat Resigns Over Iraq
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030327/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/war_diplomat_resigns_2

"Wright, 56, is at least the second American diplomat to resign in protest over policy toward Iraq. John Brady Kiesling, a political counselor at the U.S. Embassy in Athens, stepped down March 7."

I think it depends on the absolute willingness and conceptual understanding of the people (living in the areas mentioned) to have a Free Iraq.

john..thanks, but i don't see how this action will prevent a dirty bomb in this country...seems we are just making it much more likely..arabs that may have not hated us so much a few days ago surely do hate us now...those that already hated us want to kill us now..seems we are reacting predictably obnoxously...suddam must be so excited with the way the masses are chanting his name in other arab states..seems after 9 11 our money could have been better spent to respond rather than react so predictably..i wish being the most "powerful nation in the world" meant more than having the most biggest bombs...being in denial that china exsist of course....god help us ...

Shawn, you wrote in Flash 65 comments: "Why aren't the Indians and Pakistanis discovering war isn't the answer for their own struggles? I mean, sure the barbaric Americans are using war as their answer, but are the Indians and Pakistanis so powerless and spineless that they cannot make a Stand For Peace? Stop emulating America, India and Pakistan! Stop using war as an answer to your problems and grievances!"

Unfortunately, not many Indians and Pakistanis are discovering that war isn't the answer to their issues. But some have always been aware of the futility of war and I am sure more will become aware (and I hope sooner than later).
If India follows USA in unjustified military actions, then the Indian people will unfortunately bear the negative consequences of it. Same would hold good for Pakistan.
I couldn't agree more, Shawn, that war is not an answer to our problems and grievances.
I pray for peace.

Good point on the routine nature of cross-border shelling between Pakistan and India. The shelling Wednesday was retaliation for the massacre. The shelling over the prior weekend, however, was not.

A pre-emptive war in this case does not necessarily necessitate a war in all other instances.

Preemtive? This war is preventive.
Preemtive would be if you see your neighbour going with his chainsaw to your tree, and you stop him. Preventive is when you burn down your neighbours house because he was in the Home Depot, as Reuters put is so beautifully.

I don't know why this concept is so hard to grasp, that people living under a brutal dictator might still resent invaders even more. Saddam Hussein can't hold a candle to Stalin and his brutality, yet the Soviets drove the Germans all the way back to Berlin, with millions of casualties in the process. Stalin also shot anyone who wasn't helping. Despite some awful military mistakes, it worked, and the Soviets won. By no means a perfect analogy, but there are plenty of other times in history when populations support their hometown despots.

Regarding a Chechen connection from today's Boston Globe:

Another unexpected discovery yesterday was the presence of a blond, blue-eyed soldier among the Iraqi troops, Bailes said. The operations officer speculated that the soldier is Chechen, although his nationality had not yet been confirmed.

In addition to the possible use of Muslim fighters from outside Iraq, Bailes said, Hussein apparently has taken some cues from fighting in Somalia and Chechnya, where small, determined resistance has been shown to be effective in protracting a conflict against superior numbers and technology.

Ellen-

I not only think that you are right about how lucky al Qaeda got on 911 vis a vis the actual damage that they inflicted, I think that this war was just what they wanted to have happen. I don't think that any al Qaeda plan has them doing in the Great Satan, but rather I think they see themselves in the vanguard, leading to a popular rebellion throughout the Muslim world. This Sunday's NYT Magazine article on Qutb is essential reading about the gulf separating the Western world view from the hardling Islamist worldview.

Regarding a Chechen connection from today's Boston Globe:

As hard as it is to beleive for some people, there are blue eyed and blond Iraqi's. I am not saying its not a chechan, but they do have blonds.

Link to the NYTimes essay on Sayyid Qutb.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/

Where have those meek and lazy times where predictions about utopia and apocaplypse escaped to. Our age is always so conveniently the most special! Unfortunately, the only serious development today is this complex about 'new world orders' and the end of history and the like, meanwhile still mumbling about war and liberation, New American Century and 'globalism,' viz. absurd anachronism.

On the Washington Post's relating the view that the war could take months, two points. First, when you survey a number an "unnamed sources" something sensational is apt to pop out. Second, less dismissive, isn't the heavy armor among the new troops ordered expected to take 60-90 days to arrive, thus "months"?

You know, it is an intesting fact that what every wants to see is consistancy in word and deed. When we don't see it, we get angry. For example, we supported Saddam 20 years ago, but now we're trying to oust him. Or, many of the same reasons exist to deal with North Korea in the same way we are dealing with Iraq, but we won't. I think the point that many people miss is that our government is not set up to act in a consistent manner. Heck, we often elect a new government every four years, and because of that, our foreign and domestic policies shift rather often. What makes us one of the strongest and most flexible nations in all of history, also makes us one of the most frustrating - especially to outside observers.

To add to Shawn Pickrell's and my comments:

Previously Posted by Me:
[The current anglo-american position on Iraq is that, given a few months and 60,000 more troops and tanks, etc., they will prevail.
In my humble opinion (based on my sources (including one indo-arabic person)), the US has gravely miscalculated. I think you can see this in Fisk's articles, but he is a very careful writer and will not play the predictions game.

The US should be confronted with two choices: the costs of pursuing its current policy to its intended goal will render that policy unworkable (the challenge being to prove this to the US; one place to start is NATO - the President of the EU said yesterday in Brussels that Europe should leave NATO).

The face-saving option for all concerned is not to attack Baghdad. Let Sadaam remain there as the 'Mayor of Baghdad'. After all, nobody wants to make him a martyr and there are no oil wells in the city of Baghdad. I would bet good money that the NATO countries would approve!

Maintain control over the rural areas and outlying cities in order to create self-governing regions. Share the expenses of nation-building by offering oil revenue sharing to contributor countries.]

NEW Material by Me:
As a further incentive, consider Turkey's position: from an article that I'm trying to get permission to send to Sean:
"...as it became clear that war with Iraq was inevitable, the Turkish press raised the issue of Turkey's claims on the Mosul region..there was speculation that as part of compensation for allowing the US to open a northern front from Turkey, the Turkish government had demanded 10% of Mosul's and Kirkuk's oil revenues, as well as the right to occupy these cities alongside the US troops...Ankara made clear to the two main Kurdish factions in Iraq that it would crush the fledgling Kurdish autonomy if they try to capture Mosul and Kirkuk..."

Pray for all victims, thank you!

people living under a brutal dictator might still resent invaders even more.

They might, but they don't in Iraq here. Remember 1991. Saddam is still only keeping control through fear.

Newsflash:
The Arabs hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not. The point of militant Islam is to take over the world and kill everyone who doesn't convert to it. Crawling into a hole like a scared rabbit isn't going to make them like us more. Smashing them in the mouth and wrecking one of their countries whenever they attack us (911) is something they can listen to.

Mako

Is anyone else feeling a little fear about how our country is being controlled by such arrogant....

Let me tell you about the fear sitting next to such a country.

The US administration does not respect the views of anyone who disagrees with it, particularly foreign nations. I believe it is a vicious, vindictive administration which will attempt to take retribution against any country which did not cave in to its bullying by joining this coalition of the "willing".

If this does happen, fortunately for Canada, we still do have one trump to play: Canada is still a net exporter of energy.

John said:
>I work a mere twenty blocks north of ground zero, and often wonder if I'd be alive if they chose to set of a dirty bomb instead of flying planes into the buildings.

They who, John? You're surely not talking about Iraqis are you? I don't mean to be rude; I'm just asking for clarification.

Al Jaz.- mosul live- 35 minutes ago, they had 4th airraid today. A visit to a mosul providence in East, a residential area totally erased by air attack. Dead may be over 50, but could be more as a lot of them are buried in the houses. Today also there were 17 burials in the city. People are getting angrier.

Al jazeera takedown, this is done at a very low level, it would take more than script kiddies to inflict this kind of hijack.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2360693a12,00.html

This link, about a DC based think tanks study into a 'what if' about america is timely:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Is anyone following the SARS outbreak? This is a VERY scary situation in and of itself.

There is little or no commentary in the mainstream media. Apparently Bejing has not been forthcoming about the number of infections ,or the number of deaths.

According to reports, the WHO (world health organinzation) has not been permitted to evalute the situaion within china. Numbers of recorded infections jumped to over 1000 while deaths to over 60 accross the globe. For those of you not familiar with this outbreak-- it infects and kills the young and healthy.

--very serious

Well in any case, if we're not out setting up some sort of provisional government, that would be a huge mistake.

The go-for-the-head strategy was defensible. However it seems that it's not working. I could be quite wrong of course.

your efforts, sp, foster thoughtful and respectful discourse among us readers (with some obvious exceptions).

thanks for providing the forum; it is a welcome alternative to the major news sources.

Where is richard Perle theses days. i have not seen him on TV assuring us that the iraqi's would cheer us as liberators as we enter their country.

Sean,

Because Iraqi forces have been found in American uniforms, rules of engagement have changed, officials say. If possible target not wearing a coalition chemical protection suit, and doing anything threatening to a coaltion soldier, officials say it is ok to fire on them.

Very, very ominous if true. The gloves may be coming off on all sides.

In urban warfare, how will we differentiate between civilian or warfighter?

Will a source appear soon, if possible? With the storm of news and rumor being borrowed and thrown around right now, Agonist remains a beacon of clarity.

We know how busy you are.

Re. Oil for Food Program

Bush and Blair continue to call for the resumption of the Oil for Food program through the UN. The Geneva Convention on Occupation states that the occupying powers are responsible for the civilian populations under their control. I think that the US and UK should pay for the food, not Iraqi oil.

But, really I think that the Iraqis should get humanitarian aid in any way that we can get it to them.

re: NEW AMERICAN CENTURY =

I think this may be an excessively long post, but nonetheless if anyone is unaware of this letter, they need to be, NOTE signatures, italics as recognized names:

----------------------------

January 26, 1998

The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, DC

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor.

The policy of “containment” of Saddam Hussein has been steadily eroding over the past several months. As recent events have demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections. Our ability to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction, therefore, has substantially diminished. Even if full inspections were eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons production. The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam’s secrets. As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.

Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East. It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat.

Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council.

We urge you to act decisively. If you act now to end the threat of weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. or its allies, you will be acting in the most fundamental national security interests of the country. If we accept a course of weakness and drift, we put our interests and our future at risk.

Sincerely,

Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett

Jeffrey Bergner John Bolton Paula Dobriansky

Francis Fukuyama [End of History, etc.] Robert Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad

William Kristol Richard Perle Peter W. Rodman

Donald Rumsfeld William Schneider, Jr. Vin Weber

Paul Wolfowitz R. James Woolsey Robert B. Zoellick

Well it sure seems that things are getting nastier by the minute. This SARS outbreak is indeed freaking the heck out of me that's for sure. I'm sure it's not coincidence that it coincides with the war. I sure hope they find a cure.

The "Free Iraq" idea is intriguing, essentially to build a nation from scratch alongside Saddam's. Trouble is, we'd have to build all the cities inside, because they don't exist in the desert. Then you'd have to get some people. Maybe we could empty out U.S. prisons and turn it into a "second chance" penal colony.

Ayr,

Saw your question about Umm Qasr vs Kuwait. My guess is that, as Umm Qasr is a port city (Iraq's only?), it has good road connections to the rest of the country. Kuwait, as a blood enemy for a substantial period, probably does not have good road connections. Thus delivering aid, even after a delay, through Umm Qasr may simply be the better idea. Just a guess.

Not only do I think Al Qaeda got amazingly lucky on 9/11, but I don't think even they could have comprehended how America would collapse in on itself into a twitching pile of nerves. Really - in all of history, has there ever been another "great" power that suffered a blow and then sh-- all over itself in quite the same dramatic fashion? (by this I mean the paranoia, the curtailing of civil liberties, the warmongering, the self-deception, etc)

Timothy,

That's a good model. Reminds me of Australia though.

I'm sure it's not coincidence that it coincides with the war. I sure hope they find a cure.

New virus spreading at this time of the year is nothing new or suspicious. AFAIK SARS has claimed about 40 lives - far, far less than even a normal influenza claims - in a small country.

Re Dirty Bombs

Dirty bombs are scary and will kill people, but they are not all that. 20 blocks away from a dirty bomb is more than far enough away to not have to really worry. I work in a Major Metro Area on the East Coast very close to DC and our plans for evac from a dirty bomb start at 12 block radius and work inward based on severity.

who is this rumsfield and wolfowitz????can someone tell me the background of these guys that have sent our sons and daughters to die for israel and oil?

Al Jaz - Basra live- at 3 in the afternoon, an unmanned plane was downed, andit fell on a house. There are 3 dead from the oil headquarters. There is still some electroicity ever 4 to 5 hours. No water. Some stores and rest. are open. Iraqi's claim 193 dead, and 555 injured. 400+ houses have been erased and around 200 damaged (it could be 400+damaged and 200 erased).

The Afghani model does not fit this war. There the bulk of the initial ground action was by indiginous forces. Of course they were crucially backed up by US special forces but the face of the attackers was not foreign. That does not seem to have occured to our crack strategists. Bonus points always go to those defending their own turf.
The Kurds' involvement would fit that model but so far they have not been activated.

Dirty bombs are scary and will kill people, but they are not all that. 20 blocks away from a dirty bomb is more than far enough away to not have to really worry.

My family's apartment is in the middle of midtown Manhattan... too bad for me? Too bad for the financial district? What are you trying to underplay

Peter,

I tried to email you but it bounced back:

- - -
"550 5.1.2 ... Host unknown (Name server:
jacobsonbuffalco.com: host not found)"
- - -

Fortunately for the world, there aren't many of us, but I wonder if Argonist readers might get our posts confused.

To avoid this, would you consider using your last name also? Or perhaps an initial?

Whatever you're comfortable with.

Thank you.

Kcar...
I understand what you are saying, However, it would seem that it is a tremendously vast leap from what 'inspecting' was being done, to a full-scale invasion, no? I think also, that saying this war is pre-emptive is saying that an attack from Iraq against the US was immediately imminent, which would appear to defy all released intelligence reports.

U.S. not telling the Red Cross where the POW camp is? Is this for real? (or are they just afraid that fedayeen will spring up out of the sand and take over? Does the coalition really hold ANY ground in Iraq - or Kuwait for that matter?)

information was credible.

The essence of "maskirovka" (Russian: literally "masking", in intelligence circles "the big lie").

The only time you tell a blatant "lie" is when it is actually the truth, but sounds so outrageous that no one will believe it.

The rest of the time, you don't mangle the truth, you simply massage it so it still sounds plausible.

Re: the diplomat resigning

The article calls Ann Wright "at least the second" State Department diplomat to resign in protest of the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

She is at least the third, after John Brady Kiesling and John H. Brown. See
http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/03.03/0314krieger_diplo_resign.htm

Observer-

I'm not underplaying anything, but the problem with the descriptions of Dirty bombs is that they are all vague enough for someone to think that if they live in Harlem they will die if one goes off in Chelsea. This is great when you want a propaganda vehicle for inflaming the populace, bad when you want to actually discuss what is going on and respond from a public health perspective.

John had 'wondered' if he would be dead 20 blocks away if the WTC had been dirty bombed.

Why is it so difficult to replace the term 'coalition' with 'Anglo-American,' for the sake of accuracy?

as far as sars goes... they've id ed it, its a minor mutation of a well know influenza. no, it hasnt killed many people yet, but it has an enourmous rate of spread and infection. I've heard that they are saying around an 10 - 20 percent infection rate through casual contact. thats frightening.

Al Jaz live in Irbil in the north - there are three airports in the north where us soldiers are. They are making the airports ready for flights. Press is not allowed near there.
-Turkman leader interview- they are not opposed to turkey entering from the north.

That letter to Clinton smacks of the same tainted info that went into the forgeries presented to the weapons inspectors.

Despite the fact that the European Parliament just voted down a motion of censure regarding the attack on Iraq, I believe the Europeans should use the Turkey 'lever' at some point;
the timing is obviously crucial.

Europe will present a face saving and revenue sharing deal to the US plus the key promise of holding Turkey back as a joint EU/NATO effort. Bingo! NATO has a new purpose, the EU can placate Turkey and fianlly allow it to join its ranks, Sadaam is not a martyr and can face his accusers (reality TV? sorry, need some lunch) and the Key Point - the war is contained!

Please pray for the victims! Thank you!

Background:

Civilians: before, during, and after.

International Campaign to Ban Landmines
http://www.icbl.org/

peace through stregnth

This sounds ominously like the motto of the Ministry of Peace in Orwell's 1984.

Haaretz Newticker reporting that Geneva based Intl Commission of Jurists declares war illegal.

when a second front/campaign opens, and i really beleive it will, will the US institute a draft....we'll run out of gaurds and reserves eventually.

My family's apartment is in the middle of midtown Manhattan... too bad for me? Too bad for the financial district? What are you trying to underplay

He's pointing out that dirty bombs aren't that dangerous. They're panic weapons, and they'll cause a lot of "mucking and trucking" -- destroying buildings, hauling out the dirt. But that's it.

But, yes, if you're in midtown, and if a dirty bomb goes off, and your apartment is within the blast radius or radiation radius -- then, yes, your apartment will probably be mucked and trucked.

Ultimately, however, as I say, he is right to downplay the threat of a dirty bomb. It's a panic weapon -- nothing more.

High on the scale of possbilities, low on the scale of mass-casuality weapons. Probably more people die during the year from influenza than will die from a dirty bomb.

AFAIK SARS has claimed about 40 lives - far, far less than even a normal influenza claims

fwiw, early estimates (still preliminary as the death toll in China is not known completely) put the mortality rate for SARS at about 3-5%. I believe that this is a much higher mortality rate than average influenzas...as a comparison pnuemonia/influenza mortality rate for Canada in 1996 was 23.3 deaths per 100,000 people.

source: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-221-XIE/01201/high/pneuandinflu.htm

when a second front/campaign opens, and i really beleive it will, will the US institute a draft....we'll run out of gaurds and reserves eventually.

Friend, get a grip. We're a week into this war. Tactics, strategies will change. The end result, however, will be the same. Eventually, we'll take Baghdad and the regime will fall.

It's sad that some of you seem to live in so much fear. I don't see how you can manage to go out your front door.

"SARS, and terrorists, and dirty bombs, oh my"

Haider:

Thanks for that...maybe it's just my own paranoia, but don't you find it odd that China will not let anyone in to take a look at it...weird.

I was responding to: ...but they are not all that. Not to mention Ive seen a map showing that under the right wind conditions a bomb set of at the very tip of the financial district can spread up to central park

Saw a report this morning CNN- one of the few it is released. It stated that there are more than 60 deaths associated with it. Exact number I cant remember-- maybe 64-66. At any rate members of the WHO have stated that the nature of this infection is "alarming". It does not respond as well to conventional treatments, and again, it has a much higher rate of death amoung younger populations 18-49 yrs. than more normal forms of influenza.

Here's some dirty bomb info:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/dirtybomb/

Gosh. With all this commotion about the war, don't you TOO wish you could dine on Freedom Toast on Air Force One?

TEE HEE HEE! We're adorable the way we rename foods in our government! Hooray for blindly following trends!

AL Ja. some of the bombs in the city were on the ministry of info and TV stations. If they have Iraqi Tv up, I am impressed becuase the building are in a very bad shape.

Missile may have hit Baghdad market, US admits

27.03.2003
11.45am
WASHINGTON - US defence officials said an errant missile may have been responsible for the explosions that killed civilians in a residential district of Baghdad on Wednesday, but also said anti-aircraft artillery or missiles fired by the Iraqis may have been the cause.

See story (and another ugly Tori Clarke outfit) here:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3300769&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

they don't give a shit about regime change or casualties - war or civilian.

They do care that it doesn't 'bog down'... so look for more border countries to join the fray.. it would be ideal.

this aggression is suppose to shake up the world, give a shock to the system, get rid of complacency, it's about creative destruction, capitalism.... revolution

it's as old as man himself

but, it's also about keeping the money changers in power, whether or not it's fiat currency, barter or gold backed...

sorry if this sounds somewhat contradictory... my guess is that powerful people are losing money hand over fist, so it's time to 'spin the roulette wheel', and position themselves to capitalize on
fabricated opportunity

Mako:

yeah...so true. I guess that means the terrorists are winning. Having us live in constant fear.

This sounds ominously like the motto of the Ministry of Peace in Orwell's 1984.

Oh, we're way beyond 1984 now.

The world has had lots of practice since 1950.

Every time militants in Kashmir attack Indians - the Indian government by default blames the Pakistani government for it - No Exceptions. They Indians don't want to consider the possibility that their occupation of Kashmir is resented by the Kashmiris themselves. Very easy to blame the bad Pakistanis for it. Not that Pakistan, in the past, has not supported the militants. However, since 9/11 - their overt and covert support has been significantly curtailed by the US government's insistience of the Pakistanis to shape up.

as far as dirty bombs. ok, and one set off at say, a ball game?? thats the danger. also, the effects of a dirty bomb in a populate area will last years.

mako, by confronting those fears.

habib, yeah, right. like china lets anyone look at anything there! with their population density and lack of medical facilities they are at teh most risk of this. do you think they want us to know just HOW vulnerable they really are?

alex
www.geocities.com/the_leaking_pen/

Saw a report this morning CNN- one of the few it is released. It stated that there are more than 60 deaths associated with it. Exact number I cant remember...

If SARS spirals, it'll largely be China's fault. They've twice refused entry into the infected province for WHO officials.

I'm not in the least worried about SARS, but I do wonder why more folks aren't griping at the Chinese, um, "regime" for not taking more proactive steps to analyze, contain, and lock-down the spread?

Wait -- let me guess -- it's not China's fault. It's Bush's fault, right? Because he's the tyrant du jour. China is only protecting the integrity of their borders against the neo-imperialists? (Because, as we all know, they're probably fifth on The List -- after Iran, North Korea, and Syria.)

The terrorists aren't winning. The proof of that is Afghanistan and Iraq. When this fray in Iraq is over, we'll find the WMD's, and probably worse. The reasons we're over there will be validated.

In shamshal (sp?) in the north, the kurds seem to have control after iraqi troops left it - again I do not know if this is old news. AL Jaz.

You know Bob, if you're talking about the impact of the headlines "Dirty Bomb Goes of in Midtown Manhattan" on you when you take a look at the internet or a comparison between casualties from different weapons, fine, it's not "a big deal," and it's for putting people in a 'frenzy.' Do you have any idea the havoc this 'muck' would mean? What the hell is 'muck?' I've just about had enough of people who like to act the amateur intelligence expert

In my opinion, a partisan group such as the Feydaeen can't operate successfully without some help from civilian elements.

The invaders are claiming civilians are being 'scared' into helping but based on the multitude of lies the Administration has told since Sept. 12, 2002 I don't know who to believe.

To here Bush say 'they will be liberated', the way he is saying it is scaring the shit out of me. Noam Chomsky must be having a field day analyizing this invasion with his 'Manufacture of Consent' model.

I've been listening to French radio and--this is hardly a surprise--the "CoW" is routinely described as the Anglo-American armed force. It's a friggin' "talking point" dreamed up by some public relations flack inside the White House. We're not imperial powers returning (in the case of Great Britain) to your country to colonize it. I mean, would Palau or Australia do such a thing? No. Of course not. It's like naming the operation "Iraqi Freedom," when Saddam assumed power in the mid-1970s and we were okay with his brutality until 1990. And, if George W. Bush was truly down with the Iraqi opressed in 2000 or early 2001, why didn't we hear about it? If Saddam had been sufficiently open to assure the Administration--assuming they were persuadable--that he had no WMD's, wouldn't that mean he could go on slaughtering his people? Also, I do not think that anyone in the Administration has described this matter as a "war," but I may be wrong. All that's keeping me from flashing back and puking is that I have yet to see ore hear the phrase, "secret bombing."

Sorry about the rant. I just wanted Sean-Paul to promise he'll think about the catheter idea, okay?

alex:

Yeah true...but I can't help but think that there's some evil intentions from China (I guess depending on which perspective you look at it from). Aren't we due anyways for a major pandemic

fwiw, early estimates (still preliminary as the death toll in China is not known completely) put the mortality rate for SARS at about 3-5%. I believe that this is a much higher mortality rate than average influenzas...as a comparison pnuemonia/influenza mortality rate for Canada in 1996 was 23.3 deaths per 100,000 people.

source: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82-221-XIE/01201/high/pneuandinflu.htm

According to the WHO:
450 people ill, 17 died. Worldwide.

Do you have any idea the havoc this 'muck' would mean?

Yes, and that's exactly why it's called a "panic weapon." Did I not make that clear enough?

I've just about had enough of people who like to act the amateur intelligence expert.

Welcome to the internet, Observer. We hope you enjoy your stay. Before you settle in, however, there are a few things you should know:

1) People know everything on the internet

2) People know nothing on the internet

3) Everything devolves into comparisons whereby the thing compared is always 'The Nazis' (Godwin's Law)

That's it! Buckle up, drinks will be served shortly, and remember: smile!

"Peace through strength" makes good sense. "Peace through war" lies somewhere between dangerously optimistic and completely insane.

Thank you, internet, for the welcome.

I am not suggesting that America systematiclly attacks all who disagree.. I believe there are other ways to deal with problems that war, which I believe were tried for 12 years (or more). But I do believe in protecting the future of my children and their children and becoming pro-active, not re-active.

Saying that -- war means death and should try to be avoided. There are times that it is un-avoidable, and that is unfortunate.

habib, no, its not a biological weapon gone wrong. its too slow. and haider, yeah, its 3-5 percent mortality rate. and it spreads very fast. if someone with it walks into a room and walks past 100 people, 10 to 20 will catch it, from that little contact. now imagine it sweeping through parts of africa, with all the people with hiv who have lessened immune systems. its part two of a pandemic. i've been wondering how long it was going to be until it showed up. (note, pnuemonia is the number one killer of aids victims)

alex
www.geocities.com/the_leaking_pen/
www.variousthings.net

Why not declare a Free Iraq

I thought the aim was not to stay there indefinitely.

In any event, before you can declare a competing government, you must first control the land. I submit for your perusal the thought that the coalition does not have that control.

Furthermore, even if a situation as you describe could be developed, that would be regarded by a very large portion of Islam as a conquering force, legitimizing in their eyes the view of "Crusaders" in the sense of the Crusades, one thousand years ago.

The only plausible result from attempting such an operation would be Jihad throughout Islam.

Peter Shriner,

I just popped out for some lunch, but I saw your post, and I'll use my last name as you suggest.

According to the WHO:
450 people ill, 17 died. Worldwide.

yeah, and that's a pretty heavy mortality rate, which was my point. also as of yesterday WHO officials aid that they were increasingly coming to believe that last winter's Chinese pneumonia outbreak is related, which would put deaths over 50 if true.

Al Jaz. Shamsahl is on the way to kirkuk, the Iraqi's left their weapons and fled. This is comming form the Kurdish leader.

bob the cat;
i am sorry, should have been clearer. when N. Korea overruns RoK, or Syria attacks Isreal, or the Indians and Pakistanis light it up, or Russia and ... etc. etc. will we need to implement a draft. Iraq is no concern, it is whatever is next that I am worried about. With out crying "the sky is falling."

This could very easily be the beginning of a total realignment of the world order.

Brian,

Well said. And, we are not hearing much details about the next country on the list. But, I bet you 3 months before the war, everybody will become an expert on the tyrrany and oppression that country had to endure for the last x years.

The name of the next country could be a surprise in itself.

More Newspeak from the US MiniTru, via Atrios via www.freepie.org:

I am listening to The UN Security Council emergency session on Iraq right now on NPR. More than 76 general assembly members have asked to speak today against coalition aggression. I learned from one speaker that our military has set up "freedom camps" on the Iraq borders for refugees to go to. They are empty.

Yep, that's right, "freedom camps."

Are these "freedom camps" surrounded by a "liberty fence"?

Perhaps the US Diplomat will stay in Mongolia after her resignation....

Posted by Daniel at March 27, 2003 11:49 AM

good point. she'll probably be much safer there, what with us pissing off and making new muslim terrorists every day. 9/11 was just one day to remember. How many am i going to have to remember after we've pissed off the whole lot of them?

The name of the next country could be a surprise in itself.

You mean we're going to overthrow ourselves?

;-)

It's funny about those "freedom fences" you guys mention. I heard they were called "french fences" that were just stakes in the ground surrounding the camp. They weren't held together by any means. Just stakes in the ground with a white flag on each post.

This could very easily be the beginning of a total realignment of the world order.

The beginning of the total realignment of the world order was the stolen 2000 US Presidential election.

There is an awful lot of drivel being tossed around here. I just read through about half of it and wonder where the foundation for it is. Most, if not all, of what is being said here is opinion not fact. I understand the political biases people have and also the opinions of those who have relatives in combat. I however do not condone the continual churning out of theory as if based in fact when it is it personal opinion.

I think I see three pieces of military disinformation in this post. The bit about chem and bio facilities and landmines, the bit about Iraqis in US uniform, and the bit about why the Red Cros (or Red Crescent) can't have access to the POWs. But it's not your job to editorialize.
If any of these are disinformation, they're aimed at us, not the Iraqis. I didn't think that was part of the army mandate.

Should I be posting this? Not likely. By now there have been several comments about ranking/moderating comments. Whatever technical solution is found, if one is needed, I think the genius of Sean's work already implies a hierarchy of a comment's value.

I think what most of us want to read is:

1--Information, made public here for the first time, from non-public sources
2--Information not yet posted here, from other media or Internet sources, especially sources that are usually reliable but difficult for must of us to access
3--Background information based on substantial experience (i.e. military career, experience with a particular armament system, advanced degree/one or more books published about the topic, lengthy residence in country, etc.)
4--Questions that no one has posed, or answered yet
5--Solutions to technical problems, praise for Sean and reminders to donate, meta-discussion (guilty as charged)
6--Speculation based on vague notions of Iraq, Islam, military hardware and strategy, gleaned from movies, TV, and Internet browsing
7--Deeply-held and immutable opinions pro or contra any of the above, especially if based on limited experience

Some posters consistently give us #2 and #3 (thanks! keep it up!), and no one can get enough of #1. I also appreciate how the comments have largely avoided degenerating into heated exchanges of #7. But a lot of posters should ask themselves: do you really need to post your long-winded, uninformed ideas on how the war should be prosecuted, or peace established? I mean, if you've got a brilliant idea for a post-war Iraq, why don't you go force your way into the State Department, or better yet the White House, so you can present the idea to someone who can do something about it? And please, make sure your pockets bulge ominously with random bits of metal and electronic scraps, or a double helping of Harvest Bowl baking soda, before you go.

By this standard, I really should just shut up now and enjoy Sean's work until I have something useful to say.

Isnt hacking down the aljaz is by definition a cyber-terrorist attack?
shouldnt we protest this obvious crime against free speech and free flow of information?
i fear that we are at the dawn of a new totalitarism era.
just being american is not a sure proof of defending freedom unless we act and defend basic pricipals of freedom.

Thank you for providing such an intriguing website. Thank goodness business is slow these days!

The information discussed both on the website and in the comments is both refreshing and troubling. I appreciate reading everyones' opinion.

Concerning the resignation of the second/third diplomat... Were we not the first target in the latest phase of this war? I recall reading many comments yesterday about the brotherhood of Islam. I will stand with my brother, cousin, ect. against those that defy us. The individuals that lashed out in September of 2001 against the infidels orchestrated the opening salvo in this chapter. Preemptive or preventative? That question is moot.

Peter Shriner,

I just popped out for some lunch, but I saw your post, and I'll use my last name as you suggest.

Posted by Peter Griffin

Many thanks.

Another US diplomat resigns in protest to the war.

We have not seen such an effective (self-)purge of fifth columnists in the State Department since the trial of Communist spy Alger Hiss!

From Timothy, way upthread:

Trouble is, we'd have to build all the cities inside, because they don't exist in the desert. Then you'd have to get some people. Maybe we could empty out U.S. prisons and turn it into a "second chance" penal colony.

Otherwise known as "settlements," right? What a truly wonderful idea!

I know you were kidding, but, given that irony is officially dead, just in case some of the humor-impaired take the suggestion seriously and start advocating it: This is about the one thing the Bush administration could do in Iraq, short of nuking Baghdad, to screw up the situation ten times more irretrievably than it is doing now.

"Newsflash:
The Arabs hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not. The point of militant Islam is to take over the world and kill everyone"

This seems a common mistake among ignorant Americans. If you look at other groups around the world, latin America, Africa, East Asia... they all have had more of their people murdered by America than the arabs/muslims. And none of them have benefited (via oil exports) in the same way. Arabs have not had a history of being anti-American. They might have been the most pro-American of all the groups out there but for the American support of Israel and the curious way that muslim and Arab states tend to hang together. Yes, yes joke though it is at the government level.

America was on Egypt's side over Suez. America was on the Afghan side against the Soviets. America helped muslims in Bosnia and still helps Al-Qaeda style fundamentalist terrorists in and around Albania. America has always been more friendly to Pakistan than India....

I can understand how the war mongers in power are puzzled, almost upset at Arab reactions. After all the Vietnamese don't hate America -- after the US murdered millions of them. Same in South Korea. To name just the big two.

"Not only do I think Al Qaeda got amazingly lucky on 9/11"

I don't think they got lucky.
I think they got help.

"Friend, get a grip. We're a week into this war. Tactics, strategies will change. The end result, however, will be the same. Eventually, we'll take Baghdad and the regime will fall."

So what? Haven't you been paying attention? The only way to "liberate" that oil is to kill all the Iraqis.

A quick comment on the 'hacking' of Al-Jazeera's domain.

For people who think that this is something difficult to do, it's not -- it's actually pretty trivial, involving forging of a few emails, or other chicanery. Trust me, I've been involved in a few situations in that regard.

Claiming that this sort of thing is "an affront to freedom," "cyber-terrorism," or other such rhetoric is a bit extreme considering the ease with which someone can hijack a domain. Consider also the fact that this is the sort of thing that's amusing to a certain set of teenage skr1pt k1dd13z out there...

There's commentary on this situation on the mailing list of the North American Network Operators Group, or NANOG. Archives are here: http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/nanog/ and here's a few posts from the thread:

-----
From: Abdullah Ibn Hamad Al-Marri
Date: Thu Mar 27 11:16:50 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

aljazeera.net domain owned.

Per what the Chief Editor of www.aljazeera.net told me in the phone a while
ago the domain isn't in their control anymore.

all the info got changed and they are wondering how did this happen.

A visit to the website now would explian it all.

Thanks,

-Abdullah

---------

From: Subhi S Hashwa
Date: Thu Mar 27 11:32:15 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:14:13PM +0300, Abdullah Ibn Hamad Al-Marri wrote:
> Hello,
>
> aljazeera.net domain owned.
>

from whois.crsnic.net seems the nameservers are pointing to NSx.MYDOMAIN.COM
verisign whois gives diffrent nameservers. could it be that someone hijacked the domain off verisign (and they fixed it) or what other possibilites could have happened there ?

-Subhi

-------

From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine
Date: Thu Mar 27 11:50:06 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

according to the nsi retail interface, the contacts are:

jazeera space channel tv station (account holder)
mj alaliaj7476 (administrative contact)

(they are not one of my retail or wholesale customers, and i'm not operational
as a com/net registrar, yet.)

it is simple enough for them to change the .com zone ns records for their SLD.

folks wanting to move the data from nanog to a web page, just sent it to me,
i'll add it as an annex to my "what little i know about .iq" page, at
nic-iq.nic-naa.net

eric

So the entire Al-Jazeera domain is dead in the US? It made for fascinating watching on the webcast, even if I can't speak a word of Arabic.

Tunisian television is using a lot of their footage. Here's a page with a list of links to live telecasts from around the world:
http://www.broadcast-live.com/television/multilingual.html

My idea of a parallel Iraqi government centres on taking cities. But I'm sure everyone knew that.

Newsflash:
The Arabs hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not. The point of militant Islam is to take over the world and kill everyone who doesn't convert to it. Crawling into a hole like a scared rabbit isn't going to make them like us more. Smashing them in the mouth and wrecking one of their countries whenever they attack us (911) is something they can listen to.

Mako

Newsflash:
The Americans hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not. The point of militant Christianity is to take over the world and kill everyone who doesn't convert to it. Crawling into a hole like a scared rabbit isn't going to make them like us more. Smashing them in the mouth and wrecking two of their buildings whenever they attack us is something they can listen to.

Muhammed al-Mako

This is still not clear why India is doing its missile testing? I think all these killings of innocent civilians are done by Indian inelligence to have an excuse to invade Pakstan.

I do not understand why India is doing these missile testings during this crucial times? Blaming Pakistan on every issue is becoming a habit of inidan government. I think these killing of innocent civilians is the dirty work of Indian intellignece to have an exuse invading Pakstan.

India’s prime minister was bitten by a mosquito. Blame it on Pakistan.

Newsflash:
The Arabs hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not. The point of militant Islam is to take over the world and kill everyone who doesn't convert to it. Crawling into a hole like a scared rabbit isn't going to make them like us more. Smashing them in the mouth and wrecking one of their countries whenever they attack us (911) is something they can listen to.

Mako

Newsflash:
The Americans hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not. The point of militant Christianity is to take over the world and kill everyone who doesn't convert to it. Crawling into a hole like a scared rabbit isn't going to make them like us more. Smashing them in the mouth and wrecking two of their buildings whenever they attack us is something they can listen to.

Muhammed al-Mako

Posted by Ben Allen at March 27, 2003 02:48 PM

bullshit. (sorry sp, had to say it)

americans don't hate arabs. bigoted redneck jagoffs hate arabs, mexicans, blacks, jews, and everyone that isn't related to them in at least 3 different ways.

the viewpoint that all americans hate arabs is propaganda. and yes, so is the view that all arabs hate americans. just some of them.

alex,

the viewpoint that all americans hate arabs is propaganda. and yes, so is the view that all arabs hate americans. just some of them.

I think that was the whole point of Ben Allen's juxtaposition.

So Mako was in fact spewing vile hate, but Ben was just showing him how this works both ways to make him think about how absurd he sounded.

Just heard on Fox, for those who are interested, that Geraldo is with the 101st and will be showing up shortly on Fox (time of this post 6:20 PST).

start quote:
Newsflash:
The Americans hate us, always will hate us, and it makes no difference weather we appease their dictators or not.
end quote:

I want some of the crack you are on. Americans hate Muslims so much we give money to Palestine, we bailed out the Muslims in the Balkans, we liberated Kuwait, and sent food to the Somalis.

Yah, thats real hate going on there.

Since when was the US a dictatorship ? Please think before typing.

Start quote:
The point of militant Christianity is to take over the world and kill everyone who doesn't convert to it.
End quote:

Another drug induced bit O paranoia. When was the last time you saw a Billy Graham-induced suicide car bomb ?

Start quote:
Crawling into a hole like a scared rabbit isn't going to make them like us more. Smashing them in the mouth and wrecking two of their buildings whenever they attack us is something they can listen to.
End quote:

All that misplaced angst. Tsk Tsk.

See Felix Deutsche's post for an explanation of what I was getting at.

Though just to make it exceptionally clear to anyone still reading this discussion, the idea I was trying to get across is that the "Arabs hate us; Arabs will always hate us; we have to use force to show those Arabs who's boss" idea that Mako expoused is much akin to the "philosophies" expressed by Al Qaeda members, just with subject and object flipped. I consider them both to be incredibly evil worldviews -- Al Qaeda's being more evil, of course, but largely because they've gone insane enough to act on their beliefs, unlike Mako who, I assume, remains a fairly non-violent, rational person.